COMMENTS WELCOME
So far with my blog I have avoided getting into too many personal discussions with commentors. But I felt compelled to open this one up to everyone. "I fail to see the problem here. What is so troubling about Greeks wanting to maintain the country of Greece FOR Greeks? Diva?" ethnocentrist | 08.13.05 - 1:41 am | My problem with this view is that we are living in multi-cultural society whether we like it or not. The benefits of diversity are many, as far as I am concerned. Our humanity is enriched by mixing and embracing other cultures. I am not advocating that people give up their own cultures and traditions. I believe that tolerance and understanding of other people and their cultures enables us to grow as human beings, which is what we are, first and foremost. This blog is basically about Human Rights, the rights of all human beings, regardless of how different they are to you and where they happen to choose to live. Greece is already a diverse and rich country influenced by many different cultures. It is a shame that this diversity is seen as a threat. It doesn't have to be. Please feel free to add your comments to this discussion.
Technorati Tags: multicultural, human rights, racism
posted by deviousdiva @ 9/04/2005 02:00:00 AM
12 comments
A very interesting discussion. I agree that we are a multicultural society already and that we shouldn't be threatened by that. We can still be fully Greek and accept other cultures.
What kind of racist statement IS that????..."Keeping Greece for Greeks." I hear this excuse too much. If Greece wants to be 100% homogenous then I would expect every nationalistic, patriotic, ethnic Greek to stop studying or emigrating to other countries, stop buying non-Greek products, stop hiring non-greek workers, stop working for non-Greek companies and stop ASKING for handouts from the EU. Don't bite the hands that have fed your country in the past and continue to do so in the present. When Greece was a major exporter of emigrants, Australia, England, Canada and America opened its doors to them when things got rough here. It's now time to extend the same basic human rights to other legal immigrants in their time of need.
Thanks for your comment SeaWitch. I totally agree. I avoided responding in anger to "ethnocentrist" as I felt this would only fuel a heated argument between the two of us that would be counter-productive. However, I welcome comments from visitors on this inflammatory subject.
Well, after having returned from a land trip to Greece, (FYRO)Macedonia, Serbia, and Germany, there appears to be a vast majority who disagree with the 3 views here. As a matter of fact, my views are the "norm" in Europe, while the other views are the extreme minority. After visiting places like Thessaloniki, Halkidiki, many Greek Macedonian villages, Florina, Kastoria, Skopje, Ohrid, Belgrad, Frankfurt and Berlin, I can say that people's ethnic and cultural pride remains quite bright and persistant despite the incessant dronings of globalization and "oneism". Probably more so.
While the west is under an African and Mexican invasion, Europe is under the Muslim and Albanian invasion. I'm sure the other Greeks here are aware of the visions of a "Greater Albania" that I kept hearing from all the places I mentioned above, including Germany who has even greater problems from other immigrants due to its extremely strong economic ability.
I find it quite humorous that "seawitch" comes with the tired and ever so inept, due to overuse and misuse, "racist" comment. There is absolutely nothing racist of wanting to maintain a European homeland that has been present for centuries and millenia as is. To me, seeing Greece flooded with Africans, Albanians, and Turks where they become the majority is NO LONGER Greece. How can one "maintain" their Greekness when what made Greece, Greece no longer exists and no longer is taught and possibly may be frowned upon in the future. Please, that is naive and indoctrinated thinking.
As to the other strawman of "exporting immigrants" etc from seawitch, studying is part of the "humanitarian" angle that you are advocating and does not imply a change in ethnic makeup as long as the students return to their countries of origin. Also, should the rest of the world should stop using logic and medicine since they originated in Greece? Didn't Greece maintain its identity despite giving the world these schools of thought? "Studying" is a non sequitur to this argument.
Trade is another strawman and non sequitur. If one wants to do trade they must destroy their own home and homeland? LOL Please!
As to exporting immigrants, only England and Germany have a rightful beef in this regard. The other countries such as US, Canada, Australia are all European derived nations that have become what they are thanks to ALL European immigrants.
I am not against human rights, I am for ethnic homogeneity and these two are not mutually exclusive.
In response to ethnocentric:
First of all on your comment about the majority of Europeans being on your side of the fence! It depends entirely on which circles you frequent. Sure if all your Euro-mates are Nationalists like you it is easy and comforting to boost each other in your notions of nationality and consensus.
Secondly, I would like to question your whole philosophy (if it can be graced with that word) of homogeneity. Mankind has never been homogenus. I am, for all its worth, from PURE Persian stock (read Aryan, Semitic, Greek, Mongolian, African, Chinese, Turkish...).
In terms of pure blood there has not been such a race anywhere in the world for millenia. We are fundamentally a nomadic race and our history is a timeline of movement and intermixing. No one anywhere can claim truthfully and anthropologically, to be pure, so stop with the bullshit already.
As for what seawitch says, rather effectively and succicntly, you really ought to try stop using foreign funding and labour, not to mention products (I can imagine you right now in your Nike gear and your Levi's, all designed in America, and made by sweatshop workers in the Far East, your house, built by Albanian and Serbian workers at a fraction of the cost and twice as well as any Greek workers would have built it, your cigarettes grown in Pakistan and India, bought by Western tobacco companies at ridiculously low cost, and sold in the West at ever-increasing prices, oh and let's see where was the computer and software you use to write this stuff on made, or your car or bike or even bicycle!... need I go on?) and see how far you can get.
In todays world, it is simply childish (not to say moronic) to still forward theories, opinions and arguments that were already outdated in the 1930's. And, lest we forget, the whole world fought a massive war and gave over 50,000,000 lives, to get rid of exactly this way of thinking. You claim what you say is not racist! WOW, talk about a broad understanding of terminology. No doubt you believe that Jews are the reason why the world is in bad shape, that black people can't think, that all Muslims hate Christians, and the whole tired catalogue of other dangerous mythology, that has seen our world tear itself to pieces every single year that we have been on this planet. Use your mind a little, how do you respond when other people see all the Greeks as thieves, liars and unreliable, ouzo drinking, woman beating, uneducated fools, and then check back on the alarmist stuff you've written here.
And another thing, check your facts while you are at it. No country's indiginous population has ever been over balanced by foreign immigrants. Every statistic ever made shows foreigners to remain in a tiny minority, permanently. Unless its Europeans that invade it of course, witness the fate of Australian aboriginies, and North American Indians. Although judging by your writing you believe that to be "Manifest Destiny" for the white race!...
Think before speak, listen before you become an expert.
Flux,
You are one strawman after another. Amazing really how you have managed to spout off nearly every single leftist indoctrination without even a hiccup.
Let ME educate YOU.
First of all on your comment about the majority of Europeans being on your side of the fence! It depends entirely on which circles you frequent. Sure if all your Euro-mates are Nationalists like you it is easy and comforting to boost each other in your notions of nationality and consensus.
I have been on this rampage, if you will, for ~ 5 years and counting. I have spoken to thousands, if not over ten of thousand people on this subject and I do not select the people I discuss this subject with in order to get sympathetic ears. I have spoken to people in nearly every European country, Canadians, Australians, and Americans. The statistical odds that everyone I spoke with agreed with me, in varying degrees, though most welcomed the topic and acted as if a weight was removed from their shoulders is astronomical. No one, and I repeat, NO ONE became irate at this. So I think most people secretly agree with my views and welcome my thoughts. It is quite dangerous for most to vocalize it publically and that is where most get the misconception that people want this forced global mixing. Your hope that I was at Klan or Neo-Nazi meetings when discussing these issues is nothing but "ad hominization".
Secondly, I would like to question your whole philosophy (if it can be graced with that word) of homogeneity. Mankind has never been homogenus. I am, for all its worth, from PURE Persian stock (read Aryan, Semitic, Greek, Mongolian, African, Chinese, Turkish...).
My sympathies. I am Greek and whatever Turkish genetic admixture I may have is due to the 4 century occupation. Just because there has been admixture due to travels and wars does not make a Finn and Nigerian indistinguishable. This race denial is another leftist strawman. Genetically speaking, people are what they perceive themselves to be. Namely a German is a German, a Greek is a Greek, a Swede a Swede etc.
In terms of pure blood there has not been such a race anywhere in the world for millenia. We are fundamentally a nomadic race and our history is a timeline of movement and intermixing. No one anywhere can claim truthfully and anthropologically, to be pure, so stop with the bullshit already.
No one said anything about "pure blood" except you. I have admitted to probably having some Turkish blood due to the effects of the Ottoman occupation, though I have never officially checked via genetic testing. A country or region need NOT be pure in order to maintain its genetic makeup and cultural mix. Another strawman. In essence, what you are saying is akin to BMW churning out 90% blue cars and 10% red cars for example. Since there are 10% red, then we have to pretend there really are no blue cars and even if some red paint was admixed into the blue during production there really is no blue cars. Then when you want to go and buy a BMW and ask if they have a blue one, the salesmans says...uhh we only have cars"...and since there are a few red ones he or she states one cannot be sure if it is blue or red. This is fallacious at best and one would think the salesman and BMW have gone completely nuts. Whether there are humans who have been admixed over time does not equate to NO racial and cultural categories as well as NO geographic or territorial boundaries. Erasing borders is Marxism, my admixed friend.
As for what seawitch says, rather effectively and succicntly, you really ought to try stop using foreign funding and labour
I've already addressed this and it is yet another strawman and non sequitur. This is akin to "since you won't play by my rules, I'm taking my ball and leaving". Quite childish and unrealistic. We have NO obligation to inundate our countries with other ethnicities and races simply because China makes Nike clothing. Absurd.
In todays world, it is simply childish (not to say moronic) to still forward theories, opinions and arguments that were already outdated in the 1930's. And, lest we forget, the whole world fought a massive war and gave over 50,000,000 lives, to get rid of exactly this way of thinking. You claim what you say is not racist! WOW, talk about a broad understanding of terminology. No doubt you believe that Jews are the reason why the world is in bad shape, that black people can't think, that all Muslims hate Christians, and the whole tired catalogue of other dangerous mythology, that has seen our world tear itself to pieces every single year that we have been on this planet. Use your mind a little, how do you respond when other people see all the Greeks as thieves, liars and unreliable, ouzo drinking, woman beating, uneducated fools, and then check back on the alarmist stuff you've written here.
Well, it took 5 paragraphs, but eventually the Hitler bogeyman came out of the closet. Another extremely predictable leftist scare tactic. Hitler was a psychopath. He was the worst thing that happened to Europe, not only because of the devastation during the war, but for the 6 decades afterward that has seen Europe and most of the west veer strongly to the left in order to "avoid" another Hitler. How ridiculous. Navigating through life in order to avoid an isolated event that came together through very distinct and remarkably rare events. Yes, let's destroy everything that has made Europe unique in order to prevent another psychopath while we completely ignore the effects of extreme leftism, i.e. Marxism, which has led to over 100 million deaths by many different rulers across many different nations. Yes, that makes much more sense.
As to the Greek statement above, Greeks have deservedly acquired those labels because, in general, they have been that way. Thankfully, they are slowly changing and becoming more the way our ancient ancestors were that have contributed so much to civilization. Goes to show what Turkish influence and genetics will do to a culture, huh? It also inadvertantly solidifies my point of keeping our countries "relatively" homogenous because one never knows the effects of all this wonderful diversity. Well, actually I do know and in nearly every single case, divesity has been an utter failure.
And another thing, check your facts while you are at it. No country's indiginous population has ever been over balanced by foreign immigrants. Every statistic ever made shows foreigners to remain in a tiny minority, permanently. Unless its Europeans that invade it of course, witness the fate of Australian aboriginies, and North American Indians. Although judging by your writing you believe that to be "Manifest Destiny" for the white race!...
And finally, the anti-white racist ad hominem. Bravo Flux. The fallacy of immigration not affecting the native populations was more accurate when immigration was actively and strictly enforced. What we have now is a free for all amongst third worlders into the civilized, socialized, welfared western world. Get real Flux. There are over 1 million illegal Mexicans entering the US per year. They have overtaken blacks as the largest minority. Whites will be a minority in 2 to 3 decades and Mexicans will be the majority for all intents. Turkey, with over 70 million people will inundate Europe. China with over 1.3 billion people can inundate ANY country and not have any significant impact on its native population. Same with South Asia. YOU need to get your facts straight before you spout one unfounded leftist lie after another.
Forgive my long delay in responding to Thanos, however after a long holiday, work was my primary focus these last couple of weeks.
the ethnicist(s) have erected their - seemingly - impenetrable wall of "truth" (actually tired doctrine, founded in pseudo-science and pseudo-rationalism)
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Tired doctrine and pseudo-science? Please. The doctrine is not one iota "tired", but more accurately renewed. We have been living in a leftist doctrine for my and your entire lives. The ethnocentric doctrine is becoming revitalized because while most people were indifferent for so long, the world wide anti-European legislation is finally becoming intolerable to even the most moderate of people. People DO NOT want their countries over-run with incompatible people, both ethnically and genetically, no matter how well the Marxists pretty it up. We are seeing the rumblings across a multitude of European countries as well as Australia and North America, especially the US.
As to pseudo-science, this is nothing but unfounded, indefensible leftist cant. The science behind ethnocentrism is sound and has been reproducible over decades and countries. The science is irrefutible and the only thing left for the left to do is either unilaterally dismiss it or attack the messenger as "racist.
Your facts:
Fact: The world is changing, not at its usual pace, but in leaps and bounds again, a situation that may breed, as it has in the past, uprising and turmoil.
Fact: There are a lot (a LOT) of people displaced from their homes, whether by poverty or war or other people (genocides, pressure from ethnic, religious, race groups, what have you). These are people from all walks of life obviously.
Fact: Immigration causes problems. Both to the immigrants and the natives.
Fact: Immigration is a source for benefits. Both to the immigrants and the natives.
Fact 1 is true, yet is being forced upon the people by the elite who have inklings of one world governments and globalization where the masses become simple faceless and culturalless masses. It is NOT spearheaded by the people, as in the past, but the elite. Simply for money and power.
Fact 2 - true
Fact 3 - true
Fact 4 - not always true. In moderation and in WELL CONTROLLED environments, it may be beneficial however in the current state, it is nothing but detrimental. Especially to the native populations, both economically and culturally.
Let me tell you something about our precious sons and daughters, the descendants of Plato and Aristotle, the offspring of the men who declared the existence of the atom and the solar system: All they can do is play with their cellphones, wear baggy jeans and dream of the day they will be "discovered" for their true talent: singing and dancing. Or at least become a bartender and have all the "chicks" at their beck and call. They can read and write, but that is the horizon of their education. They memorize meaningless pages of sub-par books hoping to succeed in inane exams and attend a sub-par university, in the hopes of becoming a lazy public servant. They have no idea - and even worse, they don't give a shit - about their (or anyone else's) history. About philosophy. Art. Literature. They can hardly read a restaurant menu without their attention straying.
This I agree with. It is a travesty to all Greeks to have the youth of Greece behave in such a God awful manner. I was embarrassed to see this first hand. I have never seen such debauchery, depravity, and lack of social grace than what I saw in Greece last month. This is NOT the case for many other European countries and their youth but more so in Greece. I have no idea how they, especially the young Greek women, came to such a disgusting point. These women possibly will be someone's grandmother in the future and they behave worse than most prostitutes. Maybe it is my age, 40 years, that makes me think this way, however I doubt it. In an attempt to "outdo" the rest of Europe and show how liberal they are, the Greek youth have become an unfunny joke.
What is to be done? What do you propose? What is your POSITIVE contribution to the issue? Theories are nice, you see, but what of the reality?
Let's start by behaving normally first and foremost. Let's teach our children, as I do mine, the difference between right and wrong. Let's show them that we EXPECT them to try their hardest in school and in society. Let's teach them respect, first by example and then EXPECT it from them. Let's monitor what our children do, read, learn. Let's teach them a good work ethic and NOT one of life is one big party. Let's exert our energies towards making them understand that not all of them can or will be doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. Let's show them that there is nothing wrong with earning an honest euro even if it is job that isn't the most desirable. Let's teach our young women/girls respect for themselves and their bodies. Let's teach them that THEY control the future of their country, despite men thinking they do. Let's promote marriage instead of fucking. Let's promote 2, 3, and 4 children families and NOT childless, unmarried couples. Let's teach women that they have a responsibility to control their "golden gate" and not have it open for any and all to enter. And in the current state, most young Greek women have no "gate" whatsoever, it appears.
Let's stop tolerating and promoting slovenliness and laziness in our citizens. Let's not allow people to choose welfare status over work by having a generous welfare system. Let's deal with issues of importance instead of Marxist dogma.
As to the foreigners, let's get rid of them because they will be nothing but an ever increasing sore in the country. Humane deportation is the only solution that will save Greece, and all of Europe, from absolute catastrophe. Your forefathers gave their lives to expel the Ottomans and now Europe wants to give them an open invitation back in? LOL Yeah right! A Greek is a Greek and no one else. Not an Albanian, Nigerian, Indian, and definitely not a god damn Turk.
I will have to respond to Thanos when I have more time, which will be later tonight. Thanks for the reply. As for Steve Gibbons, well, I will let his words stand as a enblazened example of the "tolerance" and hate the left is notoriously known for. They quickly resort to ad hominems and speech suppression. They have no interest in dialogue or truth for that matter. Only ideology. Sorry Steve. This is a GREEK blog on Human Rights and as the header states "XENOPHOBIA-RACISM-HOMOPHOBIA-HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES". That means two things for me; it is about GREECE and I am Greek, and it deserves a counter argument which I am voicing. So if you cannot tolerate dialogue and prove your point in a sane, civil, and educated manner, you can f**k right off.
A question to ponder while I am away. Why is the left so intolerant and hate filled? Why are they so fearful of contrary discussions towards their ideology? I am not afraid to be proven wrong. I encourage debate on this subject, both on the net and in person. Why is the left afraid of possibly being proven wrong? Why do they always come out with this faux moral superiority stance and spew vitriol? What does it say about a side of an argument where the proponents advocate and demand suppression of even the slightest discussion of it? Have at it, Steve. Remember though, sane, civil, educated, and logical. If you want to come back with another empty tirade, save it.
Thanos, you are an extremely wise man. I respect that immensely. Even if we do not agree on all subjects. Later.
You asked for a definition of racism. Here is one...
An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional.
"As to the foreigners, let's get rid of them because they will be nothing but an ever increasing sore in the country"
"A Greek is a Greek and no one else. Not an Albanian, Nigerian, Indian, and definitely not a god damn Turk."
These two quotes from you ethnocentrist could be considered racist.
Thanos,
1) I can agree with this. I am sure that there is a fair amount of rehashing of ideas both from the left and right.
2) A snip and link on ethnocentrism, racism if you will, or simply prejudice.
Prejudice Is Hard-wired Into The Human Brain, Says ASU Study
TEMPE, Ariz.—Contrary to what most people believe, the tendency to be prejudiced is a form of common sense, hard-wired into the human brain through evolution as an adaptive response to protect our prehistoric ancestors from danger.
So suggests a new study published by Arizona State University researchers in the May issue of the “Journal of Personality and Social Psychology,” which contends that, because human survival was based on group living, “outsiders” were viewed as—and often were—very real threats.
“By nature, people are group-living animals—a strategy that enhances individual survival and leads to what we might call a ‘tribal psychology’,” says Steven Neuberg, ASU professor of social psychology, who authored the study with doctoral student Catherine Cottrell. “It was adaptive for our ancestors to be attuned to those outside the group who posed threats such as to physical security, health or economic resources, and to respond to these different kinds of threats in ways tailored to have a good chance of reducing them."
It can be found here...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050525105357.htm
The entire article can be downloaded here...
http://zupload.com/download.php?file=getfile&filepath=5576
There is more, however this is the most recent I have come across. I have stated other reasons for ethnocentrism in the other entry as well that was in reply to "starfish", however this is the most "sound" if you will.
I'll have to respond to your remaining points later.
To Thanos, part 2.
3) What you say here is partly true and I agree with it to a certain degree. The one sticking point for me comes at the end where you state...
You see, whatever we wish to read into it, the world changes despite our designs, even despite our darkest conspiracies.
It does not have to be an outright conspiracy for an agreement amongst elites to have been implemented and placed in motion. We know several things and I will let people decide for themselves if world governmental policies are not calculated, conceived, and then pushed forward. Particularly the "movement" of people and such. In the US, the 1965 Kennedy-Celler Immigration Act brought about a significant change in policy. At the time, is was represented as a largely symbolic act that would result in no significant demographic changes. We've seen how true that was. Prior to this Act, immigration was strictly controlled and based on merit. Afterward, family reunification was the primary objective. Over the last decade, it's a free for all with legal and illegal immigration where Bush denounced CITIZENS who took it upon themselves to simply watch the southern US border for illegal Mexicans as vigilantes.
Canada and its Marxist in the making, Pierre Trudeau latched onto the "cultural mosaic" or "salad bowl" model for the populace. Its roots began in the mid to late 60s with an official government policy termed the "Policy of Multiculturalism" in 1971. It became the "Canadian Multiculturalism Act" officially in 1988. In Australia, the Immigration Restriction Act of 1901 began losing ground in the late 1950s to early 60s. The Act fell in 1973. The British Immigration Act (1971) divided immigrants into those who had the right of residence in the United Kingdom and those devoid of this right, while giving the government full control over immigration issues. The decision-making powers pertaining to potential refugees became delegated to immigration officers, rather than competent authorities capable of verifying an immigrant’s application. In Germany, the turnaround came in 1973, giving rise to a conflict which had two dimensions: territorial (local vs. federal authorities) and ideological (left vs. right). And on and on it goes. Throw in the United Nations which has to be one of the most corrupt global entities around that has two effects; 1) make criminals wealthy and 2) push policy that transfers wealth from the rich to the poor. One can get a good sense of how things "just happened".
And then the piece d'resistance is the Bilderberg meetings which, and I quote (emphasis mine)...
June 3, 2004 - BBC
The Bilderberg group, an elite coterie of Western thinkers and power-brokers, has been accused of fixing the fate of the world behind closed doors. As the organisation marks its 50th anniversary, rumours are more rife than ever.
Given its reputation as perhaps the most powerful organisation in the world, the Bilderberg group doesn't go a bundle on its switchboard operations.
Telephone inquiries are met with an impersonal female voice - the Dutch equivalent of the BT Callminder woman - reciting back the number and inviting callers to "leave a message after the tone".
Anyone who accidentally dialled the number would probably think they had stumbled on just another residential answer machine.
But behind this ultra-modest face lies one of the most controversial and hotly-debated alliances of our times.
On Thursday the Bilderberg group marks its 50th anniversary with the start of its yearly meeting.
For four days some of the West's chief political movers, business leaders, bankers, industrialists and strategic thinkers will hunker down in a five-star hotel in northern Italy to talk about global issues.
What sets Bilderberg apart from other high-powered get-togethers, such as the annual World Economic Forum (WEF), is its mystique.
Not a word of what is said at Bilderberg meetings can be breathed outside. No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted.
So, if one has an open mind about such things, it is clear that we do not randomly move around. There HAS been a significant, and to me devastating, policy change amongst elites around the mid 1960s. Leftists, and make no mistake, it was leftists who fucked things up, in their enlightenment LIED to the people and then implemented chaotic legislation that has done nothing but bring about social unrest. Even Ayn Rand, who was the most forceful critics of multiculturalism, condemned the world-wide ethnic revival of the late 1960s as a manifestation of tribalization that would lead to an ethnic Balkanization destructive to modern industrial societies. And what does the left do to continue this horrific lie? Why lie some more, of course.
So there you have it.
I'll get to your number 4 later. :)
BTW, what aspect of medicine do you work in?
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