Tuesday, September 13, 2005

SICKENED

It seems as suspected by many that the Hatewave festival is going ahead. The organisers are determined to protect thier "constitutional rights" and hold this hate meeting despite all efforts to ban it. Read article here from Kathimerini. I don't believe they have a right to have a "festival" they themselves call hatewave. They are nazis. Just look around the internet at some of their sites. They make me sick. I don't want to see or hear anymore of it. As far as I am concerned they have NO right to spread their hatred and violence around. I've had enough of being tolerant and listening to the censorship arguments, freedom of speech, the right to meet and all that. Right now I want to throw up just from looking at this stuff; the swastikas, the armbands, the hate paraphenalia, the lies and the sickness.  If you can stomach it, read some of their forums. We are dealing with very sick people. A LOT of very sick people. I was going to post some links to their sites but I can't bring myself to do it. Believe me, I know what the reaction will be to this post. But I've had enough. I don't want them here. STAY SAFE THIS WEEKEND

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At 9/13/2005 05:46:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

I just wonder if the arrest of the leader of Golden Dawn will change anything...

 
At 9/13/2005 07:04:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

I'm not sure that changes anything as far as the meeting goes as Antonis Androutsopoulos is one of the leading members not their leader.

His surrender is good news though.

 
At 9/14/2005 04:00:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Aren't you being a bit melodramatic with the "stay safe this weekend" suggestion? How many instances of murder and rape have you heard of that was due to Neo-Nazis, which I agree that Golden Dawn is, over the last 50 years? If anyone should warrant a "stay safe" it would be Golden Dawn participants who more than likely will have to deal with the "tolerant" left that will be looking for trouble at their party.

 
At 9/14/2005 04:21:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

I have known of many attacks by neo-nazis in Britain. Do you know how scary it is even being verbally attacked by people dressed up to the nines in swastikas and the rest? I do. And it's not in the least bit melodramatic to say "stay safe". These people have attacked innocent people before and I have no doubt they will again.

Stay safe this weekend

 
At 9/14/2005 09:56:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

Neo-nazis in America are pretty damn bad too. I don't know what German and Greek neo-nazis are like. I am actually kinda surprised there are Greek neo-nazis. To an American neo-nazi, a Greek might as well be Jewish.

Still, I almost thing there needs to be an opposition party that wants to create a perfect race that isn't a race, just the rest of the world minus these jackasses.

 
At 9/15/2005 12:38:00 AM, Blogger FLUX said...

In reply to ethnoboy

I didn't reply to your last comments on my post, because I didn't think it worth the bother, not because I felt you proved your case indisputably.

But this one I've got to say something about...

Leaving aside the well documented rapes, murders and mutilations of the longish history of Nazis; I know enough examples, including personal ones, of brutal attacks and murders by your cozy little Neo-Nazis, to feel truly apprehensive about their very existence.

My own 78 year old uncle, one of the most civilized men anyone is ever likely to meet; a very well educated civil engineer of high intelligence and integrity, living in Frankfurt for 30 years, met one of your cuddly little Fascists.

He has been in a wheelchair for the past ten years as a result. The young 'man' broke into his house, beat his head against a wall, broke his spine and left him with brain damage.

And, in case you forget, in your nationalistic frenzy, in the rest of Europe, especially in Germany, France and England, Greeks are no more highly regarded than Turks or North Africans. And though your Fascist buddies may feel that Greece is European, no one else in Western Europe agrees with them. In London I had many wonderful Greek friends, and they were treated no better by the racists than blacks people, Jews or Pakistanis. Get real.

Oh, and get off your high horse about 'left wingers'. No one here is talking about Leftist politics, the discussion here is about the HUMAN race, not the white race or the slightly off borwn race or anything else.

And, if I recall rightly, even you admitted to having a certain amount of Turkish blood, so relax and enjoy life instead of getting your knickers in a twist over immigration. Try and see that the world does not revolve around your narrow interests.

 
At 9/15/2005 02:34:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Keep your ad hominems in check flux, unless you want this to degenerate into something quite unpleasant. I picked apart your pompous "argument" in the previous entry with civility and facts and not with unfounded name calling. Show some class, if it's within you.

Spare me the "your fascists" or "your Neo-Nazis" broad brush smear tactics. They do not work with me nor do I tremble in fear at mere words. I am neither, nor do I have any association within any groups of this sort. Quite a sad state of affairs for liberal and tolerant Europe to equate anything remotely as ethnic pride or dare I say "racial" pride as Nazi. Especially you who seems to have Nazi on the brain and sees a Nazi around every corner. Are you as diligent to ferret out the "Nazis" who believe in Black pride? Jewish pride? South Asian pride? Asian pride? Islamic pride? Hispanic pride? Mexican pride? No? Why not, flux? What makes me so special to deserve your "altruism"? Why are you so content on this abolutely glaring inequality between EVERYBODY and Euros? To prevent another Hitler, like you said before? LOL I see! Buddy, there have been hundreds of Hitlers and the worst one was Mao and then followed by Stalin. Hitler was an amateur compared to these two professionals. They brought misery, death, and destruction to MORE people than Hitler ever did. Why aren't you looking for a Marxist underneath every stone? You do realize that the west is headed for a one world government that is slowly but surely on its way to becoming the most deadly totalitarian global state ever in history thanks to this irrational Hitlerphobia that leftists like yourself are helping by being the "useful idiots" that elitists crave?

Enough of Hitler because aside from my fascination of the events of WWII, I have no affinity for the Nazis because they were murderous and evil and have been the bane of the western world. I do not make any excuses for them, HOWEVER I will not let leftist propaganda go unanswered either.

I'm sorry for your uncle, however an anecdote does not a crisis make. My point above was NOT that Neo-Nazi thugs are pleasant and docile, it was that statistically speaking, the likelihood of getting attacked by Neo-Nazis is way down on the list of potential attackers. Radical leftists are MUCH higher on that list. I'm sure Neo-Nazis have caused harm and attacked people, however when you look at all the data, it is ridiculous to invoke this great fear as "stay safe". I can guarantee that if people left them to their "hate fest" or whatever it is, they wouldn't bother anyone. North American media would love to constantly use the Neo-Nazis as scapegoats ad infinitum, however the sad reality now is that most Neo-Nazi hate attacks are propagated BY the minority in question. Jews paint swastikas on their homes. Blacks do as well. For the last decade, it seems every Neo-Nazi attack has been a hoax. That should tell you something.

I'm well aware of this internecine conflict of many European nations in relation to Mediterranean people. Fuck 'em. Most Germans, Brits, and French do not think that way. Outright Nordicists think that, not the average Euro. Regardless of what a small number of THEM think, it has no bearing on what I say and the accuracy of it.

As to my "Turkish" blood; I said that I may have some though have not checked officially and genetically. But so what if I do? You're still pushing this "pure blood" strawman which is irrelevent.

 
At 9/15/2005 02:43:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Melusina states: Neo-nazis in America are pretty damn bad too.

Just where are these Neo-Nazis? I do not doubt that they exist, however let's get real here, shall we? In the movies, YES. They exist there. Anywhere else aside from a smattering of maladjusted youth that shave their heads and wear black boots who are manipulated by some father figure that feeds them twisted Hitlerphilic pablum? I would be much more concerned with Black and Hispanic attacks than Neo-Nazi. Not because I think I can pass as one, but for the sole reason it is hard to run across one. Running into a Black or Hispanic, well that occurs every 3 feet or so.

 
At 9/15/2005 08:56:00 AM, Anonymous starfish said...

Quote from ethnocentrist
"North American media would love to constantly use the Neo-Nazis as scapegoats ad infinitum, however the sad reality now is that most Neo-Nazi hate attacks are propagated BY the minority in question. Jews paint swastikas on their homes. Blacks do as well. For the last decade, it seems every Neo-Nazi attack has been a hoax. That should tell you something."

Oh, for crying out loud. Which planet do you live on? There is no arguing with someone like you, who is so misguided in his thinking. Your arguments are ridiculous, without basis and deeply racist. You keep playing the "leftist" card. Give up man. This is not a leftist discussion. We are talking about NAZIS. And most sane people do not want to see their kind or their allies again.

 
At 9/15/2005 03:17:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Starfish states: Oh, for crying out loud. Which planet do you live on? There is no arguing with someone like you, who is so misguided in his thinking. Your arguments are ridiculous, without basis and deeply racist. You keep playing the "leftist" card. Give up man. This is not a leftist discussion. We are talking about NAZIS. And most sane people do not want to see their kind or their allies again.

1) Please provide factual data to either back up your assertions or disprove mine. A mini-tirade will not suffice.

2) I understand we are talking about Nazis, however THIS was my point since it somehow escapes people...

My point above was NOT that Neo-Nazi thugs are pleasant and docile, it was that statistically speaking, the likelihood of getting attacked by Neo-Nazis is way down on the list of potential attackers. Radical leftists are MUCH higher on that list. I'm sure Neo-Nazis have caused harm and attacked people, however when you look at all the data, it is ridiculous to invoke this great fear as "stay safe".

 
At 9/15/2005 03:21:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Oh yes, for Starfish. Please provide a working definition for "racist" so we are all on the same footing. I do understand the left likes to use that word as a "catch all" phrase when they disagree with anyone. Thanks so much.

 
At 9/15/2005 04:09:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

Well, I grew up in the American South. The Ku Klux Klan bred in their youth a whole wave of neo Nazis. They are ALL over the place, and these are more than just "maladjusted youth who shave their heads", they rape young black girls, they beat up Jews, burn down black churches, trash synogogues, murder homosexuals, and spew their hate-filled froth all over the South.

And I can sure tell you one thing. If I saw one of these guys coming down one side of the street, and a black and a Hispanic coming down the other, I'd rather be on the same side as the black and the Hispanic. Even though I'm about as Aryan as you can get genetically, I'd rather not come close to breathing the same air as these people.

 
At 9/15/2005 07:16:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Blogger seems to have lost some of the comments on this post. I am trying to retrieve them. Help!

Can those people (ethnocentrist, thanos and steve gibbons) whose comments are lost repost them?
If you don't have a backup, I can put a copy of your comment up with your permission. Sorry about that. I am onto blogger about it right now.

 
At 9/15/2005 07:51:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

It seems they had some freak out at blogger so those posts are gone.

This affects a post from thanos first (starting " A few quick points, since - fortunately - the discussion continues :)1) My comment about the tired arguments was sparked from the same old rhetoric (not just ethnocentrist's)"
Next from stevegibbons starting "To ethnoEnough of the "you're a lefty bla bla" bullshit"
Another post from Thanos starting "I'm sorry to say, stevegibbons' response is worse"
and then two comments from ethnocentrist starting "I will have to respond to Thanos when I have more time, which will be later tonight"
and "Thanos, you are an extremely wise man"

It would be great if you would repost as the discussion is very interesting. Of course, it would be best to this in order or else this part of the discussion will make no sense to anyone who hasn't been following. Sorry about the mess up. And thank you for your contributions.

 
At 9/15/2005 07:59:00 PM, Anonymous starfish said...

To ethnocentrist.
You asked for a definition of racism. Here is one...

"An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional"


"As to the foreigners, let's get rid of them because they will be nothing but an ever increasing sore in the country"

"A Greek is a Greek and no one else. Not an Albanian, Nigerian, Indian, and definitely not a god damn Turk."

These two quotes from you could be considered racist.

 
At 9/15/2005 08:25:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

Hmm, some posts I am seeing, other posts only Thanos can see. I can't see his two comments or one by Steve Gibbons and ethnocentrist. On Thanos' computer he cant see these last two from deviousdiva and starfish, but I can.

Weird.

 
At 9/15/2005 08:44:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Very weird indeed. Well, for now I will leave well alone and see how others respond. I would really hate this discussion to end because of a technical hitch,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Much appreciated.

 
At 9/16/2005 05:33:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

I see all the comments as they have been written. Maybe the problem has been corrected. If not, I can repost what I have here.

Starfish, thank you for your reply. Starting with your definition of racism, which is...

An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional

I have several issues with this definition. If you could tell me where you found it, I would appreciate it. As to my problems with the definition, the first sentence disallows "purity" which I have clearly stated that there is no absolute purity due to tens of thousands of years of migration and warring. However, some sub-races or ethnic groups such as the people in Iceland and Finland are quite ethnically pure. This is a fact. The definition states one would be racist if they stated such.

Secondly, superiority. I have never stated that one race is superior or inferior, though I do view quite a distinctive pride in my Greek heritage. I also view a great deal of pride in generalized European history and accomplishments as well. This would be considered racist according to the definition. Also, it is well documented, researched, and published that there is an inherent difference in "g" or general intelligence amongst the large racial groups. This data is in The Bell Curve and also in repeated tests on IQ which consist of the SATs, GMATs, LSATs, MCATs. These are all indirect IQ tests and the tests have been tweaked and re-tweaked over the decades to remove bias of any kind. They continually show a gap amongst the large racial groups which are in order of intelligence Jews, East Asians, Whites, and Blacks. Billions have been pumped into the education system to raise American Blacks to the level of Whites yet the gap remains. The program Head Start was initiated for such a thing and the premise was that if Black children had a "head start" in education, they would do just as well as White children. The effects were promising for the first few years of schooling then by the 3rd or 4th year, the Black children regressed to the mean of Black children NOT in Head Start. Also, the SATs and other standardized tests are a DIRECT indicator of success and likelihood for completion of the respective programs.

How about physical differences? A book by Jon Entine, who is and I quote "a mild-mannered Jewish liberal", has written a book called Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It. In it, he states quite convincingly...

To any TV viewer, it's apparent that blacks dominate basketball, football and Olympic running events. What's not so obvious, until you've pored over the pages of Taboo, is the astonishing degree of their dominance. Consider running, which is the most democratic of sports, requiring virtually no equipment, teams or club membership. All it takes is a surface and a runner. Every record at every standard distance is owned by a runner of African descent, from the 100-meter dash to the marathon. In sprinting, Entine notes, all of the 32 male finalists in the last four Olympic 100-meter races were of West African descent. The statistical likelihood of that happening based on population alone is 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 percent.

In marathons, Kenya, a country the size of Texas, rules the world. At Boston, the world's premier marathon, Kenyans have not lost the men's race since 1990. In all, as Entine writes, Kenyans have won 38 Olympic running medals since 1964. Based on population alone, the odds that Kenya could turn in such a haul are one in 1.6 billion.


The second sentence I agree with because one should NOT be judged on their race and I do not judge individuals by theirs. There are absolute facts that can be gleaned from group stats and they are by nearly all agencies, government or private whether they say so or not. Yet, it is imperative as a species to treat people as individuals. That I agree with though it still does not make it mandatory for one to associate with another because I agree with freedom of association just as much.

Now the last sentence, if I read it correctly, states that even if UNintentional, one can be considered racist. That is a big problem with me. Especially in the US where people and careers are ruined simply for stating something NOT politically correct. I absolutely abhor and reject "thought crimes".

As to my two sentences which you brought up, while they may be insensitive, I do not consider them racist. The reason is that they both are facts, one more so than the other. While others may want to be Greeks and adhere to the culture, that is great, however they are not Greek. Sorry. Being Greek entails more than wanting to drink Ouzo. The other sentence is true as well. Look at England, Germany, France, Sweden, Spain, and even Italy to see how immigrants affect a country and the native population. Let's face it, "diversity" by the leftist definition is a joke and multiculturalism is an abject failure.

 
At 9/16/2005 05:43:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Melusina, while I agree with you on certain aspects of the deep south as you state, I fear you are believing the "hype" of the anecdotal stories and the media. This is some information from the DOJ(Dept of Justice in the US)

In 1999 according to U.S. Dept. of Justice statistics, there were about 197,679 black-on-white violent crimes compared to about 8,198 white-on-black violent crimes (single-offender victimizations involving completed, as opposed to mere threatened, violence)—more than 24 times as many.

Even more remarkably there were about 20,003 black-on-white rapes or sexual assaults, while the number of white-on-black rapes or sexual assaults was somewhere between 0 and 33. Black-on-white rapes or sexual assaults were at least 600 times (if not thousands of times) as common as the reverse.


These numbers were taken from the DOJ, as stated. As you can see, while your fear of Neo-Nazis may NOT be unfounded, it is quite a miniscule threat in relation to Blacks, in general. Numbers do not lie, especially when they are this one-sided. Also especially when you consider the US government tries to hide and "pretty up" these numbers as much as possible. So you may be right that some southern Neo-Nazis have raped Black girls, the likelihood that this is some sort of epidemic, as the media would love us to believe, is incorrect.

 
At 9/16/2005 09:00:00 PM, Blogger scarfalonius said...

Gosh, on the one hand, we should be grateful to ethnocentrist for making this such a lively blog thing. On the other, let's face it - ethnocentrist, you're really tiresome. Maybe if you wrote without such intense sneering you might score more points.

Multicultural issues aren't going to go away anytime soon. This planet is seeing more movements of people than at any other time in its history - and most people are heading in one direction: north. It so happens that's where the wealth is (we won't go into why). When so many people decide to move somewhere else, there are going to be tensions, whether it's Africans in Pagrati or Smyrniotes in Piraeus.

There is a case to be made (though ethnocentrist clearly hasn't made it) for the rights of locals to live the way they want to live - think how you would feel, deviousdiva, if your neighborhood got taken over by Taliban refugees, burkas everywhere, fat guys in beards with sticks. That's an extreme example, but you get the point. Locals feel bewildered, threatened, and suddenly there were the Good Old Days when everything was rosy and white (well, somewhat swarthy) and homogenous. Politicians build careers on this sort of rhetoric.

But using extreme examples is deceptive and just plain wrong. The Albanians in Greece are not the Taliban, and neither are the Chinese or the Africans. They're just people who left behind a crummy life to build a better one somewhere else. The vast majority of foreigners here want to make a decent, law abiding future - and that includes learning Greek, learning Greek history, Greek music etc. Like Greeks themselves once did, the ones who left Greece for Australia and the US a generation or two ago. Ring any bells, Ted? There was grumbling then, too. But economics won out.

Want to talk about economics and foreigners in Greece? That argument is very, very over - we got all this fresh muscle to do hard labour and prop up the pension funds - and we didn't even have to conquer anybody. The foreigners are actually happy to do the work! That's a new one for Greece and quite a trick. Some people call it neocolonialism.

The point is - the argument over foreigners can really only be waged on cultural grounds, and that's a dodgy thing indeed. Wanna try and prove Rebetika is superior to Reggae? Wanna ban sushi? Wanna talk about who's a foreigner and who isn't?

Or how about just defining 'Greek?'

I bet you couldn't get more than 2 people to agree on a definition on that one. And your whole case rests on it.

Cultural identity, finally, is a story we tell. The reality is that we all bleed. Ethnocentrist, you'd be far better off figuring out how to save the planet from a big rock from outer space, because that's the real enemy.

That, and toxic sludge. And a few weeks ago there was this program on super-volcanos.....

 
At 9/16/2005 09:22:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Two things:

1) I have been nothing but cordial, except to people who have attacked me first, then I responded in kind though less so. For "scarfalonius" to accuse me of "intense sneering" after reading his sneer filled post goes beyond hypocritical. It's within the realm of projection.

2) This entire counter argument of yours may be summed up as 1) Oh well, that's way things are now, 2) people moved around before, 3) these poor immigrants want to eat too, and 4) hell, we're making money and don't have to work because they "will do the jobs {fill in the ethnicity here of any western host population) won't do". Sound familiar?

Really now, I have more important things to do with my time than answer personal attacks and tiresome, well refuted drivel.

 
At 9/17/2005 01:52:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

To Diva,

I want to apologize to you for what appears to be a "hi-jacking" of your blog. That was not my intention. Obviously, the subject matter I write about is quite important to me as it is pertinent to my children, my family, my progeny, and my ethny and I write with a certain degree of passion. It is also evident that you probably do not agree with most of my writing, if any of it. I find you decent and tolerant to allow me such freedom here. If you want me to stop, I will gladly stop out of respect for you and your efforts. I think it is useful to hear a logical and well structured counter argument to the social policy of this day and age. However, as we have seen, some are very sensitive to this subject matter and respond in various ways. This is due to the massive indoctrination efforts that have been forced upon us. Regardless, if it is your wish to have me stop, please say so. No offense will be taken and no one, especially me, will think any less of you.

 
At 9/17/2005 04:56:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

TONIGHT
( and I know it's 4.30am but that's how it goes)
I played a gig and, for the first time in my life, I was afraid to announce it. We played here in Athens. I mouthed off about the hatewave gathering, but I was not brave enough to announce my own "lovewave".
For fear of what? Attack, infiltration, injury, all of the above or an imagined enemy?
Sadly, I didn't take the risk. I am sorry for that. I don't know how organised these people are. I don't know how they think. Maybe I am being super self-important. But still I was afraid.

No, I do not want this discussion to end, ethnocentrist. This is the reason I bother to blog. The only thing I ask is that you TRY to understand how difficult it is, to BE THE FOREIGNER.THE MINORITY. THE OBJECT OF MISTRUST. THE OBJECT OF HATE.

Thank you to all who came to the gig. Thank you to all who supported me through this whole thing. Thank you to all who struggle to understand.

DEVIOUS DIVA

 
At 9/18/2005 12:57:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

To scarfalonius.
Well, I just don't know.

"think how you would feel, deviousdiva, if your neighborhood got taken over by Taliban refugees, burkas everywhere, fat guys in beards with sticks"

I've never really HAD a neighbourhood that was mine. By that I mean, where everyone was like me, and I understood that this is where I belong. So I have no experience of being "taken over"

 
At 9/18/2005 02:44:00 AM, Blogger scarfalonius said...

deviousdiva - The neighborhood doesn't have to be the place where you grew up or anything. It's just wherever you happen to live, if suddenly or gradually it gets populated by people who really freak you out. I have friends in London, who always considered themselves quite liberal & progressive until they realized that every other guy on their street had a beard and wouldn't say good morning to any woman, and every other woman wore a headscarf. That's when I started hearing nasty things about Islam from unexpected quarters. But I think it's one thing to be against overt sexism and headscarves, and another thing to be against 'foreigners.' The French went into this issue pretty thoroughly, banned the scarves in schools, but nobody seriously questioned the Muslims' right to live in France (except LePen and his bunch).

ethnocentrist - Probably I should have scaled back my tone in my last post. You have the guts and the interest to come and contribute to a non-conservative, anti-nationalist blog, I respect that. You shouldn't be surprised, though, if your provocative name and provocative writing actually provokes a reaction. I'm interested to see if ANY of your arguments hold water, but so far - and I'm not trying to be (too) rude - you're all wet.

Be aware that these issues are not distant abstractions to some people. When you reel off bogus White Nationalist statistics (http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4761.html) that 'prove' the genetic inferiority of Africans, you're really pissing people off - aside from the fact that a quick search of Google will turn up a ton of sites that rip 'The Bell Curve' to pieces..........you could easily prove the 'criminal nature' of Greeks by pointing out that breaking the law is part of daily life here - from parking illegally to jaywalking to bribing doctors to employing illegal aliens to build your house. Are Greeks genetically inclined to cheat? Hmm. No, of course they're not, nobody is. And it's irresponsible and offensive to say otherwise.

Let's have a real discussion about the real issue - you want to live in a 'Greek' Greece, whatever that is. Well, what is it? What is this 'Greek' Greece? And how do human rights fit into it?

 
At 9/18/2005 02:45:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

To scarfalonius
Thank you for your interesting contributions to this discussion. As for your post about "neighborhood". I know what you mean that it doesn't have to be where you grew up. I have mostly lived in neighbourhoods that were already filled up with all kinds of people with very different cultures and habits to my own. For example, I lived for many years in Stamford Hill in North London. I would guess white people were in the minority. It was mainly a neighborhood of Orthodox Jews with a huge contingent of Greek, Turkish, Black and Indian locals.

Personally, I have never felt threatened or "taken over" though (with the exception of being scared of criminals). This may sound terribly liberal but being a mixed race person perhaps gives you a different perspective on the issue. To be completely honest it can be more threatening to be in situations where the overwhelming majority of people are white. Sticking out like a sore thumb can be very disconcerting. I was the only black kid at my school. That was more difficult, at times, than living in culturally and racially mixed neighborhoods.

I am very interested in what people like ethnocentrist have to say about your last paragraph.

"Let's have a real discussion about the real issue - you want to live in a 'Greek' Greece, whatever that is. Well, what is it? What is this 'Greek' Greece? And how do human rights fit into it?"

 
At 9/22/2005 06:19:00 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Scarfalonius,

I was going to rattle off all kinds of data refuting your Bell Curve and White Nationalist slight, however that wouldn't serve any real purpose because I have a feeling no data would suffice. So what I will do is tell you that I have read the Bell Curve, including most of the studies that it references. The data is irrefutable and the Google searches that "rip it to pieces" are sorely lacking in substances because I read some of them as well. Actually, only partly read because most of the refutation had to do with "indignity, morality, racism" and circled around dogma instead of science and fact. The left never scratched the findings of the Bell Curve, only the supposed racist agenda.

As to your other slight of "White Nationalist stats". Seriously now, IF liberal apologists will only offer up one lie after another with respect to race, including the now infamous "race does not exist" which was used to vilify any serious scholar wanting to study race, just WHERE would you like me to get stats on this? For obvious reasons WNs are quite interested in this topic for 1) it is a huge lie and 2) it feeds some, not all, of WNs racism. And there are WNs who are racist, but DEFINITELY not all. I would say most are not because most are honest about this topic, as opposed to liberal apologists who lay as thick a smoke screen about the topic as possible. Thankfully, the pillars of the left with respect to race are falling at tremendous rates. When the New York Times start writing about the reality of race and verifiable differences, one does need to sit up and pay attention.

As to Greeks and their penchant for stealing and lying. How do you know it is not genetic? I know a hell of a lot of Greeks. I am saddened to say that most are liars and cheats to varying degrees. How do we REALLY know that this character flaw has not been genetically instilled somewhere down the line? I don't for sure. I'm willing to admit that. This is where it is imperative to look for the TRUTH in the matter and not sweep it under the rug as a "social flaw". It may be offensive for you to state this, yet a society does NOT advance on lies. Never has and never will. We have been in a state of mental stagnation thanks to liberal PC and the fear of "offense".

Let me ask you, are all people the same? NOT should they be treated equally and fairly, but are they the same? Thanos is a doctor as we know. Was everyone that you knew and grew up with CAPABLE of becoming a doctor? Didn't you have classmates that were just plain stupid? Well, why is it so hard to translate these differences into racial groups and averages? Stats do not state individual differences, but group differences. We know that there are VERIFIABLE and REPRODUCIBLE group differences. That is not to say all whites are smart and all blacks are dumb. Look at Powell and Condi Rice. Two blacks, though admixed, who are at genius level. Lying about these group differences and hurting BOTH groups with these lies is reprehensible to me. These lies brought about things like Affirmative Action, quotas, favoritism etc and blamed the failure of American Blacks solely on white racism. THAT is a lie in general. There has been racism in the past, though at present it is a non-issue and there is still a gap between the two races. I am only focusing on these two for obvious reasons and simplicity. The same can be said of the other major racial groups as well. To me, I would rather handle the truth, even if offensive as opposed to being lied to.

Let me go on and ask, are whites not allowed to preserve their countries and racial makeup? If not, why not? If not, do you advocate this for blacks, jews, asians, arabs, hispanics, etc? Why are whites not given the same HUMAN RIGHTS as the rest of the world? Please answer that one for me. I'd love to hear a logical answer.

As to what is Greek? Whatever it means genetically. That's what. A Greek does not have to learn to be Greek, he just is. Are you going to teach a Chinaman to be Chinese? LOL If I moved to Japan, another ethnically pure country, would I suddenly be Japanese? You confuse Human Rights with ethnic makeup of countries. The two are not mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, it is more important to work on Human Rights on places where there are none as opposed to force friction upon two or more genetically and culturally distant peoples to cohabitate. So yes, my Greece would have Human Rights with a large helping of truth and common sense.

 
At 9/23/2005 08:21:00 PM, Blogger Thanos said...

I'm glad to see that the discussion is kept alive, although some posts seem to have disappeared (no, not suspecting you Diva, just don't want to miss anything due to bugs). I only want to add a quick note, as genetics have been brought up and make no mistake: Who runs fast and who thinks fast may lie in the realm of speculation and sociology, but genetics are hard science and - not trying to make myself to be more than average - my science.

There seem to be variations in different races, that's undeniable. Some are more readily aparent: Blacks are, well.. black and whites are (for the most part, a shade of) white. Blacks do seem to run better, have better musculature. Asians seem to be generally shorter, nordic whites generally taller. Other differences are harder to spot: Are blacks indeed less intelligent generally, as a race or is it just the environment? Do they get equal oportunities? What about blacks in non U.S. countries? Do they do better? Are jews more intelligent as a race? Are they - as the stereotype would have them - financially savvy? Or is it just a coincidence that they do well at such posts? Do they do as well in others? All this is more or less speculation. There are studies supporting either end of the spectrum and everything in between.

But, since you mentioned genetics: There has been hitherto mind you, no proof at all on any of this, either way.We have not found the intelligent gene or the stupid gene. We have not found the running gene or the financial gene. For that matter, we have not found the gay gene, the depression gene. Now, expect rapid progress. Expect your views to be shattered somewhere in the future. We might find out that greeks carry the cheating gene, blacks the stupid gene and whites the even-more stupid gene. Or we might find out that genes have nothing to do with anything and it's all about the environment, the conditions, the circumstances. Or - and that is my belief - we will find out that there are genetic differences, not just between races, but also between subgroups that have evolved differently, but that the environment plays a pivotal role as well.

In the end though, does it matter? A stupid person has the same rights as an intelligent one. Actually, the intelligent person bears an added burden, that of education and enlightenment and guidance.

Quick note about the refugee situation: Mel's idea is good, but it would require a stronger Europe and a more motivated one. Because, in the end, let's call it as it is: Central/Northern europeans have their own problems, they don't want more and immigration is mainly (mainly, I say) a southern problem. In reality, we won't be able to accomodate all the refugees. Now, I'm proud (regardless of whatever anyone may say) that Greece has not let any "slave" ships sink (as our friends the italians on occasion have). We always pick these people up and tend to their injuries, but yes. Realistically most will be deported. I do support immigration and I do think it can be a revitalizing shot for any country. But letting it spiral out of control will only spawn problems. And I don't mean crime necessarily, the mundane issues (most untrue) any old lady will quote on the streets. Injecting a country, already ailing financially and demographically, with too many different people too fast will cause it to split at the seams. It will cause nationalism (and I don't mean the thought-out kind, I mean the ready-made-pick-it-from-the-supermarket-shelf kind of nationalism that various people propagate on TV. The mindless kind) and nationalism invariably causes more problems.

Gah, ok one more thing I suppose. What is the "greek" Greece today. A good question. I can probably say it is - still - somewhere between the West and the East. It is multicultural, but it also possesses a unique sense ethnic identity. This reminds me: Back when the "Macedonian" issue was in full swing, some german friends inquired about it and I responded "well, imagine if someone wanted to take Bayern (a german province, Bavaria) away and make it an independent state". They thought "fine, why not?". They just could not fathom, could not understand. Why? Who knows. I suppose when one is not beleaguered by enemies (present or past, true or ficticious) one tends to simplify things like that. I don't want to plunge into what greeks have become again, I posted above. Honestly, I don't know what we can offer the world right now, except a glimpse and a promise. You saw what Greece could achieve if united under a cause (olympic games) or "prodded" accordingly (recent reforms) or immersed in the right environment (thousands of greeks with brilliant careers abroad). If left to our own devices it seems we just let everything go to hell... unfortunately. There is another thing, by the way, which I admire in greeks abroad (in the U.S., Germany and Australia, but I'm sure elsewhere too): They have become citizens of their country. They do NOT constantly long for the "old country" or scheme about how to help Greece even to the expense of their adopted country like other minorities do. They do not see everything black and horrible there and everything rosy here. They truly blend in and yet keep their ancestral culture if you will. In the end, I think that is the ultimate test. You want to immigrate to Greece and stay here? Learn the language and speak it most of the time, become a greek in that you develop a love for the country, an affinity for the people. Work for your new country, not the old. Become active for yourself and through yourself everyone else here: in Greece. If you constantly complain, if you long for some other place, if everything seems horrible and bad and ugly, you don't really belong here. We'll gladly still let you stay on a "green card" and do our best to accomodate you. But you'll never be greek.

I don't know how well it sums up my thoughts, but there it is. I wrote way more than I set out to originally =p

 
At 9/23/2005 08:49:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Just one thing from the whole of your brilliantly written post. The last line. "But you'll never be greek." What happens when someone becomes a Greek citizen? Isn't it the case that Greeks become Americans or Australian or British on gaining citizenship? Why can an African who gains citizenship not be Greek, even if we qualify it by saying African Greek.
I'm not sure of the case here, but in Britain when you get citizenship your nationality (on your passport and all official documents) changes to British.

What about a naturalised Greek persons children. Are they Greek?

I would assume they were, but I don't know the citizenship situation here.

Thank you, as always, for your contributions.

 
At 9/23/2005 11:06:00 PM, Blogger Thanos said...

Not sure I'm understanding, but let me elaborate a little. Greece is different from the U.S. let's say - but I think the U.S. would be best served changing their tune on this issue.

Yes, an african can gain the greek citizenship. Does he become greek really? That's up to him/her I suppose in part, but perhaps it should be up to the government too. I like someone from a foreign country working here fine. Since we started with africans let's continue on that vein. An african working in Greece on a "creen card". That's fine. An african becoming a greek and being granted citizenship. That's even better! An african getting the greek citizenship and cursing Greece every day and sending all his money away and lobbying (when he becomes powerful) to help his "african homeland". Not good. I am all for naturalization and assimilation. What is an african-american? Or an italian-american, or a spanish-american, or an escimo-american? As long as they don't all just become "americans", there will be no end to the troubles. Why have everything in two languages? No! You're an immigrant? Fine! We'll help you learn the language and adapt to your new reality, but you'll use the nation's language. Now, if you want to keep your culture alive, teach your (former) language to your children as a second, tell them your stories, that's fine. That's more than fine, because it enriches everyone's lives. BUT you cannot say you're XXXX-american. You are just american, end of the story. Now, I hope I don't sound harsh, but that's what I think. It leads to troubles, troubles with no end to keep "races" or "tribes" or "ethnic minorities" among your citizens.

Now, America is of course a different story, because it was from the very beginning created from many nations. But Greece wasn't. Most of the greeks feel greek (and yes, I mean the muslims too, they are a religious minority, not ethnic - very different things). I don't have any issue with incorporating into this greek body everyone and anyone who wishes to stay here and be greek and embrace the nation and the culture and the language and the way of life. Anyone. Black, yellow, tall, short, purple, spotted. But adding minorities indiscriminately, who will end up forming lobbies and wanting seats in Parliament and - in the end - be damaging to the country, no. These people are welcome to stay on a temporary/green card basis. In short, I think citizenship is a very valuable thing and it should not be given away. It should be earned and the worth of the person proven.

 
At 9/23/2005 11:25:00 PM, Blogger scarfalonius said...

Thanos -

Brilliant comments. I'd comment on your comments, but I already wrote something for ethnocentrist. You're a hard act to follow.

EthnoC -

If anybody's interested in reading something about 'The Bell Curve' (don't waste your money on buying the book,) a good start is at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve It lists a lot of publications in support and against.

But you're right about leaving that particular argument aside, ethnoc, it's not worth getting into and it's also an argument you would lose. The bad science behind that book has been convincingly refuted by many qualified academics from the left and the right, and its creepy, eugenics-loving sponsors have been exposed. I really hope you can support your ethnocentrism without standing on such shaky ground.

As for the White Nationalists...

***
Seriously now, IF liberal apologists will only offer up one lie after another with respect to race, including the now infamous "race does not exist" which was used to vilify any serious scholar wanting to study race, just WHERE would you like me to get stats on this?
***

Now you're just being silly. Are you really saying that warped statistics are better than none?

I looked through your previous posts and couldn't find your definition of 'racism.' You didn't seem to like other people's definitions. Honestly, how can you stand there and say White Nationalism isn't racist? That's absurd. White Nationalism is wholly concerned with racist ideology and nothing else. Or is your definition of racism so narrow that it only covers outright lynching and Jim Crow laws?

It's quite possible that no one else is reading this thread. Might be just you and me, ethnoc. But if there's anyone else out there, can someone please jump in here and explain racism in a way that ethnocentrist will understand? Use personal experience and vivid language, because I confess I don't know where to begin. If we can't agree on a definition for something so fundamental, this discussion won't go anywhere.

And I'll tell you why I'm in this discussion, ethnocentrist - I think you've spent a great deal of your time and effort finding ways to justify some seriously flawed propositions. You yourself admit that there is no such thing anymore, if there ever was, as a 'pure' race, and yet you continue to use the term as if it means something concrete and biological. It doesn't. Biologists and geneticists cannot draw a line and say where 'white' begins and 'black' ends, let alone 'Greek' and 'not Greek.' We're not dogs and cats - we're all the same species. We've all got a little of this and a little of that. And if there is no biological line in the sand then the question is entirely cultural. 'Race' becomes just a construct, a shorthand way of classifying groups of people. No matter how much the White Nationalists protest otherwise with their weird statistics and pseudo-scientific tracts, it's clear that the main problem they have with African-Americans, Greek-Americans, Asians and Aborigenes is NOT with their microbiology, it's that they are the easily identifiable 'other.'

Okay, so there are studies that seem to indicate a direct link between our genes and certain predispositions. Everything I've read has been very specific, very limited in scope, and full of qualifiers, like they think they've identified the gene that predisposes people to depression or to addiction - not a guarantee that this person will become depressed or alcoholic, just a predisposition. The science is a long way away from where we can predict who's going to loot the grocery store and who's going to loot the multinational corporation. And even then, I bet you the determining factor will be environmental.

The bottom line is that all this crap about genetic/behavioral differences between 'races' is just a cop-out. When racists run out of decent ways of saying 'I don't like the way he looks, cooks and speaks' they try to make their prejudice sound scientific. If I don't like mushrooms, I don't have to deform a table of statistics to make it sound reasonable. I just say, '..uh, I dunno, I just don't like 'em. I don't, okay?' And I certainly don't have to campaign to have them banned. Probably I could learn to tolerate them if I tried.

Don't you think there are more compelling issues out there, like global warming, corrupt politicians and toxic sludge? Chances are, those are the things that'll kill you, not a pack of foreigners.

Another thing about Greeks - and I have to say I'm stunned at how you can hold so many contradictory thoughts in your head, ethnoc - why on earth are you so loyal and fanatic about 'protecting' your ethny if they're a nation of liars and cheats? I would have thought you'd welcome a little genetic input from outside! Don't tell me - Icelandic airline stewardesses.

***
As to what is Greek? Whatever it means genetically. That's what. A Greek does not have to learn to be Greek, he just is.
***.

Oh come on now. You know perfectly well that Greece was a hodgepodge of different ethnicities, languages and religions before 1821, and these people did not simply fade away into thin air. They were Hellenized (quite a few were simply killed). You know perfectly well that Attiki was heavily populated by Arvanites - what the rest of the world calls 'Albanians' - and it was only through massive education, propaganda and violence that these people stopped speaking Albanian, changed their names and became Greek.

And when they find a little blue and white chromosome with a cross on it, I'll frame it and hang it on the wall. Being Greek is absolutely, 100% a cultural thing and you know it. If it wasn't, Greece would simply not exist. And fortunately for Greece and its plummetting birthrate, there's a whole bunch of people out there begging to become Greek.

You know, I'm really surprised you haven't seized on that as a source of pride. Instead of all this nonsense about biology, you should look at the inexplicable mountain of evidence that proves the power of Greek ideas. How the people in this part of the world survived under the bloody Byzantines, then the Ottomans, then the Nazis...it's remarkable. If you want to feel good about your nation and your ethny, look there. You don't need a microscope.

 
At 9/23/2005 11:29:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

This is an interesting question. It is easy to be an American, because, as Thanos said, America is made up of people from all over the world. America itself doesn't really have its own national identity. But still, identity is key. People (generally) want to hold their ethnic identity, whether good or bad. To that end, even if I do ever decide to get Greek citizenship, I doubt I will ever call myself Greek. I am an American, and despite whatever embarrassment that may bring these days, I will cling to it proudly. Now, my ancestors (on my mother's side) were very German. My great-grandfather arrived in Baltimore on a boat in the late 1800's. I am not that far removed from my great-grandfather (two generations) but I would never consider myself German. My dad's side is old school American, held over from Puritan days. Does that make me more American than if my great-grandfather on his side had come over on the boat? I don't think so.

As far as children go, well, it is likely we won't ever have any, but if they are born here, they will be Greek, I suppose. If they were born in America, I would say they would be American. I suppose the same issues occur in multi-religious households too. But I guess the American view of nationality is more simple: where you were born. Of course, that becomes more complicated here in Europe, as people frequently spend time in other countries to work and study. My husband was actually born when his parents were studying/working in Germany, but they are Greek.

I will always be Amerikanida, I won't pretend to be otherwise. There are so many things in Greek culture that I don't understand, or don't agree with, or just can't accustom myself to. To me, it is like saying you are a Christian if you don't really believe. I want to understand more about the Greek culture and way of life, but I won't ever be Greek. Whether it is stubbornness on my part, or cultural reality, I don't know.

In the end, I really don't think people, as a whole, should ever lose their true national identity. This uniqueness is what makes people so interesting. To this end, I actually agree with the notion of first generation Americans who choose to identify themselves still with their parent country, and call themselves "Greek-Americans" or "Italian-Americans", especially those who spend lots of time in their parent country. They are Americans, but they still participate in the life and culture of their parent country. I don't see a problem with that, on that level. Now, when it comes to several generations and noone has spent significant time in the parent country, then I think the identity gets a little ridiculous (thus why I don't consider myself German). But I don't understand someone who migrates from their home country and wants to adapt a new national identity. Why would an African want to be other than an African, even if he/she had Greek citizenship? I guess I don't understand that. Now would the third/fourth generations of that African be entitled to call themselves Greek? Well, sure, if that is what they felt. But I am not sure this sort of adopted identity works in other countries in quite the same way it does in America.

 
At 9/23/2005 11:31:00 PM, Blogger melusina said...

By the way, scarfalonius slipped. My reply was in direct response to Thanos' reply and dd's question.

 
At 10/02/2005 06:22:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

“The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.” -- Aristotle



Thanos,

There seem to be variations in different races, that's undeniable.

Very good. That is true. Then you quickly fall back on the "nurture" plea that THAT is the reason for any perceived differences. Bullshit. Even in Scarfi's biased link in Wikipedia, the general consensus of intelligence is 40 to 80% inheritable, i.e. genetic. The number has gravitated to 50% to appease the left, while I think it is towards the 80%. You cannot explain away differences due to nurture when GLOBALLY, different racial groups fall into THE SAME average no matter the circumstances of their environments. This shoots down the nurture angle right then and there. If one does not have any books or is in a state of severe nutritional deprivation, then one can assume these circumstances have detrimental on intelligence. However that is NOT the case for most, if not all of the western world, is it?

But, since you mentioned genetics: There has been hitherto mind you, no proof at all on any of this, either way. We have not found the intelligent gene or the stupid gene. We have not found the running gene or the financial gene. For that matter, we have not found the gay gene, the depression gene. Now, expect rapid progress. Expect your views to be shattered somewhere in the future.

I’m disappointed you have brought up this strawman, Thanos. This same argument was used by the left to show there was no such thing as race, yet we are seeing before our very eyes how that lie is crumbling thanks to genetic research. Soon we WILL find the intelligence gene, the gay gene, the financial gene, the cheating gene, the lying gene. Then the left will be eating proverbial crow on this matter and come up with another strawman to propagate more obfuscation. When these discoveries come about Thanos, it will not be my views that will be shattered. There is no better way to win arguments than to argue from the most logical and reasonable side. I am doing just that. The left argues with lies and emotional pleas while also using vilification techniques such as ad hominems in order to suppress any discussion of this matter. This doesn’t necessarily apply to people here, though it applies to the left in general. As I’ve said before, companies use genetic testing to identify the racial make-up of people and most commonly in the field of forensic testing. This alone destroyed the left’s dogma of “no such thing as race”. In the court of law, when a person testifying is shown to have lied, then their entire testimony is viewed in the same light and disregarded. The left argues on the side of ideology and not truth. They have lied to you and continue to lie in order to propagate this ideology. You of all people here should shake loose those cobwebs of deceit. Break free of this liberal guilt because I can see it in your writing that you only believe half of what you write.

In the end though, does it matter? A stupid person has the same rights as an intelligent one. Actually, the intelligent person bears an added burden, that of education and enlightenment and guidance.

Well, the reason it does matter is to assuage the white guilt that is heaped on the western world. The dogma du jour is that all the ills of non-whites are due to white racism. This is the most evident in the US with its black/white racial issues and the history of slavery. Billions upon billions of dollars have been spent to “correct” this problem with hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of whites being bypassed in order to give favouritism to less deserving university and employee applicants. All for the sake of “correcting the wrongs” of white racism.

As an aside, I noticed you put Macedonian in parentheses just like liberals put race in parentheses, as if it does not really exist. Just so you know my wife is Macedonian and I have read UNBIASED histories (from Oxford and Harvard) of the region and there was a Macedonia which was an independent state that was different from the Greek states of the time. We’ve stopped arguing about this issue a long time ago because I not only know my (our) side but hers as well. Again, it is a political, read LYING, issue that is used to propagate a belief. My views are that Macedonians in Greece bit the hand that fed them though they were mistreated prior to the civil war, hence their decision to fight against the Greek government. I do not know what the right thing to do would have been, though trying to forcibly partition a country is not one of them. Neither is denying the existence of an entire ethnic people.



Scarfi,

It is clear from your writing that you have no idea what the Bell Curve states, how it is cited, and how the data was gathered. You simply bought into the attacks which mainly consisted of attacking the authors and the sheer audacity of publishing such a “racist” book. The data is sound. The deniers are the ones who have been debunked and shown for what they are, which is ideologues and obfuscators. See here…

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gould+debunked

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&c2coff=1&q=lewontin+debunked

http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/bell-curve/

Even from your own Wikipedia link, which make no mistake is very PC on things, it states from Thomas Sowell…

Conservative Thomas Sowell, who is black, criticized some aspects of the book, claiming that the authors ignored data and failed to draw obvious conclusions from it that would have hurt their argument. But he nonetheless concluded that "The Bell Curve is a very sober, very thorough, and very honest book."

You swallow whole any leftist tripe that agrees with your preconceived notions and summarily reject evidence to the contrary as “racist” or “fringe” or “White Nationalist”. Did you even critically look at Wikipedia and notice the leftist slant? There is huge evidence FOR the bell curve, yet the page focuses on the “contrary evidence”, despite this contrary evidence is nearly all social outrage.

From Charles Murray, one of the authors on Herrnstein’s obituary…

About four years ago, shortly after Dick and I had begun to collaborate on a new book about intelligence and social policy, we were talking over a late-evening Scotch at his home in Belmont, Mass. We had been musing about the warning shots the prospective book had already drawn and the heavy fire that was sure to come. The conversation began to depress me, and I said, "Why the hell are we doing this, anyway?"
Dick recalled the day when, as a young man, he had been awarded tenure. It was his dream fulfilled -- a place in the university he so loved, the chance to follow his research wherever it took him, economic security. For Dick, being a tenured professor at Harvard was not just the perfect job, but the perfect way to live his life. It was too good to be true; there had to be a catch. What's my part of the bargain? he had asked himself. "And I figured it out," he said, looking at me with that benign, gentle half-smile of his. "You have to tell the truth." There was no self-congratulation in his voice, just an answer to my question.


From Murray again in response to TBC…

Most of the comment has been virulently hostile. The book is said to be the flimsiest kind of pseudo-science. Designed to promote a radical political agenda. A racist screed. Methodologically pathetic. Tainted b the work of neo-Nazis.

I will give four examples of these unintended outcomes, drawing from the attacks on the "pseudo-science" of a general-intelligence factor; on the link between genes and race differences in IQ; on the power of the statistical evidence; and on our pessimistic assessment of society's current attempts to raise IQ through outside interventions.
Much of the attack on The Bell Curve's science has been mounted not against anything in the book itself but against the psychometric tradition on which it is based. Specifically, Herrnstein and I accept that there is such a thing as a general factor of cognitive ability on which human beings differ: the famous g.
Ever since the late 1960's, when IQ became a pariah in the world of ideas, this has been a politically-incorrect position to take. In the early 1980's, a book by Stephen Jay Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, cemented the discrediting of g among liberals outside the scientific community. His portrait of psychometrics as a pseudo-science pursued by charlatans was swallowed uncritically and enthusiastically by the elite media, as documented by Mark Snyderman and Stanley Rothman in The IQ Controversy: The Media and Public Policy (1988).


Again…

Other factors are at work as well. Michael Novak (who has written favorably about The Bell Curve) and Thomas Sowell (who has his criticisms of the book) have pointed out in similar terms that the Left has invested everything in a few core beliefs about society as the cause of problems, government as the solution, and the manipulability of the environment for reaching the goal of equality. For the Left, as Novak puts it, The Bell Curve's
message cannot be true, because much more is at stake than a particular set of arguments from psychological science. A this-worldly eschatological hope is at stake. The sin attributed to Herrnstein and Murray is theological: they destroy hope.


Read the rest here…

http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/People/Murray/bc-crit.html

You see, the left is morally and intellectually depraved. They DO NOT care what the effects of their ideology will be, only that one must not waver from this ideology. Anyone who does will be attacked with the full weight of the PC establishment. They even devour their own who decide to misstep on the occasion. Ever hear of Lawrence Summers, president of Harvard, and his “insensitive” remarks towards sex differences in the sciences/math? Google him.

-------

Racism: The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

That’s my definition. I advocate verifiable differences and truth, not superiority. When the data shows Jews and East Asians as having higher IQs than Whites, then that does not make me a very good “white supremacist” does it?

-------

As to the data and WNs etc, I am in a catch-22 here. You want data to show what I say is true, yet do not want it from sites that you unilaterally view as WN. Yet, the left WILL NEVER acknowledge this nor will they even attempt to concede any of these issues because their entire existence is founded on untenable dogma. So you either need to open your mind or just admit that no amount of evidence will be enough for you.

-------

Re Greeks: Of course I say those things about Greeks because it is the truth as I see it. I do not hide behind lies. Regardless if that is the way things are, I still love my people, warts and all.

Also, I did notice how you circled and circled and finally came to the “your views are solely based on racism” point. Please explain to me HOW wanting to have Greece relatively homogenous as well as Europe, wanting to be with my own ethny, and wanting this for my progeny is “racist”? Are European derived people and nations somehow LESS deserving to want this than say China, Israel, India etc? All those places and more have STRICT racial laws. No one seems to be clamouring on about them.

If a white says he wants to be around whites, then that is racism. Yet if any other non-white wants to be around solely their respective non-whites, then that’s “ethnic pride”. LOL How utterly stupid, biased, racist, and god damn ridiculous.



Melusina,

Two points:

1) America does have an identity and not a hodgepodge of ethnicities. At least it did. Before, it was a melting pot that brought all other European ethnicities into one, American. American is a proud feeling of being for the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. It is based on the violent secession from tyrannical rule of an English empire. No longer is that the case with the deluge of immigrants from foreign lands that do not give a crap about these “dead old white men”.

2) You state:

As far as children go, well, it is likely we won't ever have any

If this is simply due to selfish choice, then you and Thanos should be ashamed of yourselves. You have shown exactly why the west is becoming depopulated and this “great need” for immigrants, which is a lie by the way and I do not want to get into it here. If it is due to physical problems, then I’m sorry to hear that. There are many options for couples in that situation in this day and age. If it is due to already having children from previous marriages, then I retract my admonition.



Finally, Diva,

Again, you are quite a gracious and tolerant host. I never thought you were black and it goes to show just how tolerant you are when looking back at my initial comment here about Greece being for Greeks. You must have thought what an absolute ass. I feel your pain (to take a line from that idiot Clinton) through your words and I think you just want to be accepted and not viewed as a foreigner. Maybe your child’s great grandchildren will be Greek if the entire line marries Greeks and reproduces. Unfortunately, you will not be and I do not say this out of some malice or joy. I say this out of fact. The same reason that I would never be Nigerian or Japanese, no matter how long I lived there or learned their customs. It’s as simple as that. It does not mean you should not live for yourself and your child and try to provide support and happiness, though trying to become something you are not will only lead to unhappiness.


With this super long post, I bid everyone adieu. I do not want to go back and forth on this issue because it will not change anyone’s mind, except maybe for Thanos and he can find me if he wants, but more importantly it will only bring more pain for Diva. I’ll read any comments made by the respective commenters, though will not reply. All my best to all.

 
At 10/02/2005 08:02:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

ethnocentrist.Do not use me as the excuse to end this discussion. If I had not wanted this, I would have deleted your comments in the beginning. Yes, it's hard to read and and take in views such as yours, and you will never convince me of your arguments. I do think you are wrong and misguided but I think dialogue is more important. Not just with you but with everyone who is involved in this discussion. If you choose not to post any more that is up to you but don't use "my pain" as the reason.

 
At 10/02/2005 08:07:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Personally, I have no desire to be Greek but there are many who do. I have to remind you that there are already Greeks who are originally from Africa, India and elsewhere.

 
At 10/02/2005 09:45:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

and you will never convince me of your arguments

That is the crux of why after a certain point it no longer becomes useful to continue a dialogue. This is not only for you but for most others who frequent this board. I've tried to use logic, fact, and a small amount of available data to forward my argument and in the end, one has the choice of accepting it, rejecting it, or looking further into it. For obvious reasons, you reject it outright, which is your right. I also have the right to say enough, which I will most likely do.

A lot of the contra responses since I've arrived are simply indoctrinated parroting of the liberal dogma of today. People cringe at the mere mention of race which is due to the relentless droning of the media and the Marxist infiltrated school curricula.

Two points though with you specifically:

1) You mentioned on another thread of "racist statistics". Statistics are not racist and this shows how the left has taught its disciples the speech suppressing jargon. Again, not that you are being suppressive in anyway, but in general. People become infuriated with the mere mention of discordant crime stats in the US. Just bringing up the absolute fact, that is found in the FBI and Dept of Justice websites for ALL to see, that blacks are over-represented in these stats brings calls of Nazi, racist, and Klansman. Uhh, WHY is that? How is one regurgitating numbers that are open to the public, racist?

2) You state you have no desire to be Greek. Then why are you there? This same mentality occurs in many immigrants all over Europe, North America, and Australia. Do you think we like having people in our midst that have no intention of embracing and becoming engulfed in the native culture? Why should we be forced to tolerate that? I never thought or said that I had no desire to be American? If there is going to be a continuation of all sorts of immigration into western nations, which I am strongly against, then the bare minimal criteria is that these immigrants MUST become nationalists to their new homelands. No exceptions. Otherwise there is no reason to move to foreign places. And NO, living in a nation as a parasite by earning income, utilizing the social services, and sending money back "home" is unacceptable. If the country is good enough to live in, then it is good enough to help as best as you can. The very least is to become one.

Maybe you can address those points and these others that were directed at Scarfi, but anyone is free to answer...

Also, I did notice how you circled and circled and finally came to the “your views are solely based on racism” point. Please explain to me HOW wanting to have Greece relatively homogenous as well as Europe, wanting to be with my own ethny, and wanting this for my progeny is “racist”? Are European derived people and nations somehow LESS deserving to want this than say China, Israel, India etc? All those places and more have STRICT racial laws. No one seems to be clamouring on about them.

If a white says he wants to be around whites, then that is racism. Yet if any other non-white wants to be around solely their respective non-whites, then that’s “ethnic pride”. LOL How utterly stupid, biased, racist, and god damn ridiculous.

 
At 10/02/2005 10:15:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Back to Scarfi for a moment. I did not answer these points...

Oh come on now. You know perfectly well that Greece was a hodgepodge of different ethnicities, languages and religions before 1821, and these people did not simply fade away into thin air. They were Hellenized (quite a few were simply killed). You know perfectly well that Attiki was heavily populated by Arvanites - what the rest of the world calls 'Albanians' - and it was only through massive education, propaganda and violence that these people stopped speaking Albanian, changed their names and became Greek.

And when they find a little blue and white chromosome with a cross on it, I'll frame it and hang it on the wall. Being Greek is absolutely, 100% a cultural thing and you know it. If it wasn't, Greece would simply not exist. And fortunately for Greece and its plummetting birthrate, there's a whole bunch of people out there begging to become Greek.

You know, I'm really surprised you haven't seized on that as a source of pride. Instead of all this nonsense about biology, you should look at the inexplicable mountain of evidence that proves the power of Greek ideas. How the people in this part of the world survived under the bloody Byzantines, then the Ottomans, then the Nazis...it's remarkable. If you want to feel good about your nation and your ethny, look there. You don't need a microscope.


I definitely am not going to get into a geo-political discussion with you here. That is even worse than racial issues. I touched upon it in my response to Thanos and Macedonians. These people, unless they have bred with Greeks are NOT Greek. Pure and simple.

Being Greek is a genetic thing and Greeks have a culture that they have "honed" over the years, centuries. As for the "plummetting birthrate" which I did not want to get into though since you brought it up is a direct effect of several things. Advanced liberalism which has led people to be more selfish and individualistic, extreme feminism, AND immigration.

The first two are intertwined where it has led women to become more concerned of "self" as opposed to family. Being careerists, sexually liberated and more like sexually revolting(as I've mentioned long ago in my observations this past summer in Greece), and materialistic. Not just women, but men as well. Though women have more of a direct role in the health of a nation.

Immigration, particularly when it involves countries with generous social programs, has a negative effect on native birthrates. This is due to the cost of maintaining the social net. People make sacrifices due to increased costs of living and one area is children. Children do not seem to be such a problem to many immigrants who live much better than any third world homeland they came from. In essence this becomes an attack on the native population. Another lie from the left where we need immigrants because they "will do the the work that no Greek wants to do". Absurd. This is only scratching the surface on this topic and all I'm willing to get into.

Having people knocking down the proverbial door to "become Greek" is not a source of pride to me or anyone serious about this topic. As I've stated repeatedly, one does not become Greek as soon as they land in Athens. Greeks gave the world a multitude of extremely impressive intellectual disciplines. HOW ON EARTH are these "new Greeks" going continue to advance the Greek contributions to the world when some, like Diva do not even want to BE Greek, and others come from places that never created a written language? Ummm, I don't think so! Pretty soon, if Greece does not control its borders, Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates will be referred to "dead old white men" just like Washington, Jefferson, and Adams are in the US. Baaaaad example!

 
At 10/02/2005 10:49:00 PM, Blogger Thanos said...

A tiny small point. I've read the extensive new posts and I can see the logic of both sides I suppose. Just so there is no misunderstanding: I may have my views about genetics, heredity and the environment, but unless I can provide scientific proof, they are just that. Views, theories, opinions. We may, as you said, find the gay gene, but we may not. Or we may find that indeed there is one, but it needs a certain condition to activate. The condition might be something as arbitrary as a certain temperature or as specific as a virus. Until we have incontrovertible proof, it's all speculation.

As to race. Who said there's no such thing?! Of course there is and of course there are traits inherent to each race (again, whether genetic or cultural we cannot - for now - distinguish exactly).

As to Greeks, again so there is no misunderstanding. I love Greece and the people. For all their flaws they are my family. I am concerned with the direction we have taken as a people. Perhaps we don't have a (genetic or cultural) future ahead of us. Perhaps we will die out or get assimilated. That is how it goes. It would be a pity, but such is evolution. I hope it won't end this way and I'll try my best to help. As for children, part of it will remain private, but I will respond: Yes! Such is the world today! We have become selfish, perhaps. We want the children and the career. We want the joy, but we also want the free time. Well, one cannot have both (or rarely) so we each make our choices. And if our choice is to not have children, then perhaps we *should* die out as a people... who knows.

About "Macedonians" (and yes, I use quotation marks). I realize it's a sensitive issue and I will plainly put down my views, citing that they may be tainted, but if so only with a desire for the truth and for peace. The people of FYROM (the ones that are not Albanian, Turkish etc at least): Macedonian? Geographically yes. Skopje is part of Macedonia (and therefore I was all for calling it Slavic Macedonia, or some derivative like that). Genetically/culturally? They are slavic. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but calling themselves descendants of the greek macedonians of Philip and Alexander? I don't feel animosity.. it's a lie they have been fed, raised with. No hard feelings. I just hope the people of FYROM will not allow themselves, their sense of nationality (true or constructed, it doesn't matter for this argument) be used by other powers to further causes that are not their own.

I shouldn't say it again, but I do agree: If you want to live somewhere and have children and a future there, you should assimilate into the society. I too take issue with ethnic minorities "infiltrating" a foreign country and then lobbying non stop for their "homeland". I don't take issue with a guest-worker who is legal pays taxes and has enough income to support a family abroad. I respect that.

As to the last sentence... I fear the world of Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, the world of Washington, Jefferson and Adams is gone. Gone is the innocence, the thirst for knowledge, the clear eyes looking into the future. Our world is the ship descending through a blood-red maelstrom into Hell. No one is innocent, we are all party to it. And I'm sorry.

I too think this might be a good spot to end the discussion, we have all distilled our views to a fine point. We have not *yet* started going round in circles, although my response here might be bordering on that. I'll keep reading too and perhaps post if I have something new to offer.

 
At 10/03/2005 03:56:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

To ethnocentrist

"You state you have no desire to be Greek. Then why are you there?"

I am a British citizen and have the right to live and work or study in another EU country if I choose. You have that same right in Britain. If you chose to exercise that right, I would not expect you to automatically want to become British. I am learning the language, admittedly slowly, but I try. I am not here as a "parasite". I work when I can. I contribute to the social services that I use. I abide by the laws of this country. I am not sending money back "home", although I can choose what to do with my money. (If I could help my family out of a financial crisis, I would. As they would do for me.)

There are many great things about Greece and there are many negatives. As in Britain. And all countries. I can see that it is no longer possible for us to live here for many reasons which I won't go into. I don't know where I will end up, but wherever that happens to be, I will remain a decent, honest and active citizen of that place.

 
At 10/04/2005 01:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I’m a Portuguese and, being a Portuguese, I find it hard to understand all this fuss about being greek, about the greekness. We have Portuguese with asian origin, african origin, and south American origin. Also, in the origin of my country, back in the XIII century, we had Iberians, muslims, germans, latins, etc. I’m speaking about beeing portuguese, not simply about having portuguese citizenship. Even our national music, the fado, has remote african origin. And we are proud of that. And, off course, there are the immigrants. But there are portuguese nationalists, too, who say we are a superior race, because of our ancient glories: the discoveries, the overseas conquests, etc. as you have greek nationalists who speak about the ancient greek glory of classical and hellenistic Greece. But that’s not the general feeling, here.

António

 
At 10/04/2005 01:59:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Thank you for replying Antonio,
Personally, I find the history and origins of culture within countries fascinating. As I have said before, I think diversity and intergration is enriching and not threatening. Music is always for me a good example of that.

 
At 10/05/2005 02:02:00 PM, Blogger scarfalonius said...

One small point about Greek nationalism: I grew up in the US, a country which isn't known for paying much attention to history. I remember the way Mr. Griffith told us the story of the American Indians, it took about ten seconds - "Well, the white people started settlin the land an the Injuns had to move over some. Then more people came an the Injuns had to move all the way out to places like Oklahoma, an out there they discovered they were sittin on a whole mess of oil, so they didn't do too badly outa the deal. Okay, let's look at the Louisiana Purchase."

Huh?

So how do Greek teachers tell the story of Greece? Children are taught that the Greeks have always been a nation with a national consciousness, that the Greek Orthodox Church has always been the guardian of Hellenism, that the intellectual acheivements of Ancient Greece are a personal and national inheritance, and that this tiny country has always been the object and victim of Great Power designs.

They don't teach that the 'nation-state' is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.

Even more importantly, the teachers' entire discourse is shaped by a posture of defensiveness. Children are taught primarily to defend the Greek dogma, the actual substance of history and society is selective and secondary. It's amazing how effective this is. Even cultivated Greeks who have studied abroad have a defensive reflex when it comes to criticism of Greece. Some people are especially rabid on the subject...

It's also worth noting that the intellectual founders of Greek nationalism were almost entirely diaspora Greeks.

School textbooks in the US have been re-written a few times since 1975. I imagine there is a bit more information now about the extermination of Native Americans, not that anybody there pays much attention in history class anyway. Greek textbooks have changed somewhat too - mostly to adjust five generations of extreme right-wing influence - but the method of teaching hasn't changed at all. Children are still made to think defensively about their country and their church, and they are actively discouraged from examining uncomfortable subjects. Teachers are underpaid and just want to get the subject covered by rote-learning, parents complain if their kid comes home and tries to puncture their nationalist myths, it's easier for everybody to go with the flow. Is it so surprising, then, that in 1996 Greece and Turkey almost went to war over a pebble?

I know some people who've spent many years studying nationalism in the Balkans. They say it's like walking through a hall of funhouse mirrors. The Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks all describe the same subjects in completely different ways. It's been said that each country's nationalism depends on the other countries' nationalism for support. And obviously, nothing encourages nationalism more than a war or threat of war; a vital part of all nationalist thought is the looming shadow of The Enemy.

I agree with deviousdiva. Diversity and integration are enriching and the best guarantees against this cycle of war.

 
At 10/05/2005 03:55:00 PM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

Since this is a "human rights" blog, let me ask the question straight out.

Do people here believe that whites in Europe, North America, and Australia have the right to exist in peace with others of their own ethny? Freedom of association if you will, only extended to the entire nation(s). Do they have a right to maintain ethnic and racial homogeneity as is understood in this day and age. (Let's not get back to the "no one is pure" strawman again) If yes, why? If no, why?

Why are white nations held to this "higher standard" of being force fed immigration while other non-white nations have no problem rejecting it and no one questions it?

Do people here believe whites are the only ones who are racist? Why are racial issues, when discussed by whites, considered racist?

 
At 10/05/2005 05:29:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

I believe you have the right to "exist in peace" with anyone you like. I think this would be desirable for everyone.
However, if you mean that Europe, North America and Australian should have the right to be ethnically and racially pure then no. These countries are ethnically mixed whether you like it or not. They have been built on mass immigration and nothing is going to change that.

How on earth would you propose achieving that state even if people wanted it (which I don't believe they do)? As you are disallowing the no-one is pure argument, then let me ask you something. Would the Greeks be allowed to stay in your little "Utopia" if they were pure? Or would you have them deported back to Greece? And the Greeks who married non-Greeks and have mixed race children? Do you have special plans for them?

I think you confuse the issue of immigration with that of illegal immigration. Immigration is legal and, fortunately, many of us have the right to go and live in other countries if we want to. As far as I know you can emmigrate to India, China or Africa if you want to.

As to the "who is a racist" argument. I am not sure I understand why you bring this up? You said "Why are racial issues, when discussed by whites, considered racist?" That is plainly not true. (Certainly not here though I cannot speak for everyone). It is not the fact that you are white and discussing racial issues that makes you racist. It's the content of your argument. If you say racist things you are being racist. The definition Starfish gave ""An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional" does not say that this only applies to white people. I personally have to question my own racism as I believe any decent human being should.

I am extremely curious about how you are going to achieve your desire to live in an ethnically and racially pure nation? Although, admittedly, I am worried what the reply will be.

 
At 10/05/2005 09:11:00 PM, Blogger Thanos said...

A note on Scarf's last post:

They don't teach that the 'nation-state' is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.

You oversimplify things, to a dangerous degree perhaps. It's true, we are not taught about our own "Injuns" to the degree that I'd like perhaps, but it is not true that children are brainwashed with propaganda. We do have a history and a proud one. Whether you like it or not there have been brilliant pages, as well as dark ones (the former by far outnumbering the latter I am glad to say). Our ancestors, as far back as 5000 years and as close as 50 years have undertaken feats of human spirit and gotten through gaining praise from the world.

As for... "pebbles"? Yes, some pebbles are worth going to war over. Otherwise we might as well lie down and call ourselves something else, not greeks, speak some other language, get washed away from history's pages. Otherwise, we might as well become refugees in our own country. We won't.

 
At 10/06/2005 02:03:00 AM, Blogger scarfalonius said...

Dangerous? I think you misunderstood my post Of course Greece has a long history with many proud moments. Of course it does. I didn't say children are brainwashed with propaganda - my point was that many aspects of Greek history and society are ignored or denied through omission, or lost in the nonstop celebration of Greek achievements. That in itself is not particular to Greece, all countries teach history in a way that serves a patriotic purpose, but the learned defensiveness is exceptional among European Union countries, and I'm afraid you're going to prove my point.

At the same time that Mr. Griffith made his appalling comments about the American Indians, there was a widespread movement in the US to critically examine the American myths about pioneers, cowboys and Indians. A lot of really nasty stuff was uncovered, and a lot of new heroes came into being as well. The West was seen in a new light. And as a result of these revelations, America did not collapse and fall down, people did not commit guiltridden suicide, the world did not come to an end. It's my firm belief that a country and a people are stronger by looking at their own history honestly, accepting both the heroic events and the shameful ones. You can disagree with that if you like.

As to the Imia affair: my point was NOT that we should lie down and call ourselves something else. It's absolutely clear that the forces of nationalism on both sides caused that thing to happen, and will probably cause something similar or worse in the future. Why on earth do people continue on a path that leads only to war or the danger of war? Isn't it possible to love your country and its people without depending on an enemy?

Greece has a lot of flaws and a lot of contradictions, and yet I'm still here. Talking about them doesn't make me dangerous, Thano.

 
At 10/06/2005 02:29:00 AM, Anonymous farahere said...

"Isn't it possible to love your country and its people without depending on an enemy?

Greece has a lot of flaws and a lot of contradictions, and yet I'm still here. Talking about them doesn't make me dangerous"

WELL YEAH. The dangerous talk is from you who decided that any critizism of Greece is anti something. We just point out some things that are true.I don't think it is dangerous or anything to say your point of view. But if you are wrong, you are wrong.

I also want to know what ethnocentrist would do to make an ethnically and racially pure nation?

 
At 11/20/2005 10:28:00 AM, Anonymous Spyros said...

In response to scarfalonius:


So how do Greek teachers tell the story of Greece? Children are taught that the Greeks have always been a nation with a national consciousness, that the Greek Orthodox Church has always been the guardian of Hellenism, that the intellectual acheivements of Ancient Greece are a personal and national inheritance, and that this tiny country has always been the object and victim of Great Power designs.


It's obvious that it hurts you a lot that the modern Greeks consider themselves heirs to the ancient Greeks. You are entitled to
your opinion, but keep dreaming if you think that they should not consider it part of their "personal and natural inheritance". It's not too difficult to grasp, really. They speak the same language; they have inhabited the same land for ages. But if, say, I get thrilled every time I come accross Eratosthenes's method for computing the circumference of the Earth, then I'm a goddamn nationalist. Keep deluding yourself.





They don't teach that the 'nation-state' is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.


I have no idea what you mean. Granted, education is used heavily for propaganda reasons, and this happens everywhere, not only in Greece (a country heavy with historical significance, nonetheless).





Even more importantly, the teachers' entire discourse is shaped by a posture of defensiveness. Children are taught primarily to defend the Greek dogma, the actual substance of history and society is selective and secondary. It's amazing how effective this is. Even cultivated Greeks who have studied abroad have a defensive reflex when it comes to criticism of Greece. Some people are especially rabid on the subject...


"The substance of history and society is selective and secondary"? You have any idea what you're trying to say here? This makes no sense whatsoever. Canada has been around for less than 150 years. Do you think that the Canadian educational system does not
stress the global significance of Canada? They virtually have no history (no offense here--I am Canadian and I love the country and the principles it stands for), yet they passionally defend it and rightly so!


Should the Greek educational system put more weight to world history that it does (or than it used to do 15 years ago when I was still a student)? Definetely. But you make the bold claim that Greeks should not identify the Ancient Greeks as their ancestors on the grounds that the educational system defends this reality. Once again: keep dreaming.


Is it so surprising, then, that in 1996 Greece and Turkey almost went to war over a pebble?


You subscribe to the same moronic attitude as your former president then. It's more than a "pebble". It is a matter of sovereignty.
It is a matter of an attempt by a historically hostile nation to change the already fragile status quo.

Ethnocentrist: I admire your patience, honestly.

 

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