WHAT DO YOU THINK (TWO)
We have been hearing and debating for quite a while about Greece being the most racist and xenophobic country in Europe. The European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) that came up with this results posed a series of questions and statements. I thought it might be interesting to hear peoples answers to the questions rather than just the figures. RESISTANCE TO IMMIGRANTS Read the following questions and choose between many and few for each one: Allow many/few immigrants of different race/ethnic group from majority Allow many/few immigrants from poorer countries in Europe Allow many/few immigrants from poorer countries outside Europe Please take the time to write a bit about why you respond in the way you chose. I am not interested in repeating the original survey, so this is open to people of all nationalities, anywhere in the world. I would like to hear what people really feel about these issues. Not just a series of statistics.
Technorati Tags: Greece, immigration, personal
posted by deviousdiva @ 12/26/2005 08:01:00 PM
40 comments
Well, let's see. I am greek but i'm not exactly part of any representative sample. I was brought up in Egypt and lived most of my life there and have only moved back to Greece 4 years ago.
Due to this experience, I have always felt like an outsider. When I was in Egypt i was a khawaga (egyptian term for foreigner) and whenever I visited Greece I realized the my whole philosophy was not greek at least not mainstream Greek.
As far as your questions are concerned I am all for immigrants of different race and ethnic groups because I have lived as one and I understand some of the complexities of the issue. I have to say that even though a lot of my friends feel the same way I realize that a lot of Greeks are racist especially when it comes to Albanians which as you know are the majority of immigrants here in Greece.
Explanations?
The 'official' explanation is that Greece is new to immigration. Greece has been poor for a long time and was traditionally a country with immigrants all over the world.
You know the story, I won't bore you with it.
Other than that, what can I say? It seems that all problems ( in my opinion) are the result of poor education. We ( the Greeks) might have a high literacy rate but it ends there. Greek society is a mess. It is materialistic, blindly consumerist with a shallow understanding of itself. It has jumped several states of evolution without gaining the wisdom attained by a slow maturity, with catastrophic results.
The road to Ithaca has become super sonic first class express to Ithaca, payed for by credit card in 12 'atokes doseis'.
I try to resist it but I find myself falling in the same pithole myself sometimes.
Hope this was useful.
Yannis.
I know this is simplistic, but since I think one could argue equally for or against any of those choices (or at least I cannot decide on one), I prefer a 'take whomever comes first (with exceptions for verifiable refugees)' system, rejecting people when the capacity (however that is defined?) to handle them is near to being exceeded.
Hi buruburu, welcome to my blog and thanks for commenting. It is interesting that, like many of us that have experienced living as foreigners, your views about immigration are more sympathetic (or empathetic) than those who have not.
Hello again eff. A crucial point you make is how the peak capacity is defined. I hear many people saying that Greece has reached the limit but no-one is able to say what that limit is and what to do now, if indeed it has been?
Thank you for having me deviousdiva.
Intuitively speaking I get the feeling that when the peak limit is reached immigrants will not find the country attractive as a destination. I also get the feeling that very few immigrants are unemployed (but i could be wrong). I know a lot are uninsured and are working in bad conditions and that is an issue that needs addressing but theoretically speaking, if there are no more jobs for immigrants they will simply leave. It makes sense in my simplistic understanding of market forces.
It is for a better future that they have come here and once they realize that that is unattainable there will be no reason to stay.
Not that I advocate for this specifically, but I would guess that peak capacity could be defined as the social desires and economic needs of each city. Supposing one kind of immigrant is prized, for whatever reason, social (maybe the city has a feature that appeals to group and the city's officials want to encourage more of them to live within it), or economic (cheap labor and a wider brain pool, or whatever the term is), in a particular city, when that city's needs have been met and no other city requires the immigrant type, the capacity might have been met.
Well, I suppose economics would be the primary factor in either case.
I wouldn't respond to these statements in their present form if I was polled by the EUMC because there are too many variables.
As much as race, ethnicity and financial independence are attractive qualities for choosing prospective immigrants...so too are education, good health and a non-criminal background.
I don't agree that borders of countries should be dissolved to allow anyone who feels like immigrating to immigrate. I believe in controlled, legal immigration where prospective immigrants (regardless of race and ethnicity) would meet a set of standardized criteria such as an immigrant's education level, health, skills, non-criminal background and the desire to integrate and work would be the deciding factors.
To say that all immigrants should be allowed to immigrate is idealistic at best. Most western countries are already being criticized for being Brain Drain countries. If they all decided to open their borders to the millions of sick, unskilled, uneducated, and criminals, the already-weakened socialized state infrastructures would suffer imminent collapse not to mention the rapid depopulation of emigrant countries.
1) by equating resistance to immigration to racism the EUMC has made itself absurd.
2) Greece is on the border of the EU. it is thE definative border area. to compare aytitudes there to norway or denmark is junk social science. to make sweeping statements like "most xenophobic and most racist" and arguably racist in itself.
Buruburu, I agree with you. Market forces and economics are major factors in immigration. Generally, people move to find better lives, jobs, money etc. Nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't we all do it, for ourselves or for our children? I also believe that people will move on if "a better future" is unattainable. Not just here. Anywhere.
Eff, The problem I see is this... When immigration and cheap labour is necessary, it's cool. Once the need for workers is over, and there is no legislation that allows countries to "send people back", there is a problem. It happened in England in the 50's. The country invited, no... pleaded with Jamaicans to come to England and do the jobs that were not taken by the locals (actually couldn't be taken by locals because there was a shortage due to the war). And they came. And worked hard and then they stayed... Oh dear, Now what do we do? Lots of skilled/professional black people, raising their children in England. Educated, skilled, ambitious. And there to stay.
What I wish is that we would make things clear about the whole issue. We want immigrants to do the work we cannot or will not do and then, when it's done, pack up your things and leave. Then we would all know where we stand. But right now the law does not say that. So whose fault is that? not those who came to find work.
Hi SeaWitch, welcome back after the holidays.
You certainly make some points! Got me thinking again.
I believe that we do not choose so freely amongst our "own" when we are born into a particular society?
Intelligence? Hmm. Education? Hmm. Illness? Hmm. Crime? Hmm
Not sure. I know some very "pure people" who were well... wasters.
What I want to say is that yes, in an ideal world we could choose all the best immigrants...and neighbours... and friends but life just isn't like that?
ken, sorry! not sure what your comment meant? but welcome to the blog and hope you will stick around.
Hey Diva! It's good to be back :-) (I sound like a guest on the Jay Leno show now LOL).
You're right. We don't choose freely amongst our "own" when we are born in a particularly society and that's because there's not much we can do about it. It's sort of like family...I have family members that I would never in a million years have as friends but it doesn't mean I can't choose friends who have better character traits than those related to me.
I'm not saying that only the wealthy, healthy PhD graduates should be allowed to immigrate. But I certainly can't agree that all the illiterate sociopaths with contagious diseases should be accepted as immigrants.
Rather, I think that a prospective immigrant should at least be literate, have a proven ability to work and who hasn't got a criminal record or contagious disease should be given consideration as well.
Canada and the US were created by men and women who had the desire to work and integrate. Most of them weren't from the upper echelons of society but they also never came to a country where subsidized healthcare and pensions were in place either. So if they didn't work, they didn't eat. Now, if someone doesn't work, they can still eat. There was a case in Canada involving the notorious Somali warlord, Farrah Aidid. His wife and 4 children were living in Ontario on welfare claiming refugee status even though she had been back to Somalia for 5 months and became pregnant again. Another case involved Leon Muguesera, a Hutu war criminal who had helped incite the Tutsi genocide with his speech in 1992, was given Canadian residency. He is now going to be deported but he never should have been accepted in the first place.
Those two examples are proof enough for me that controlled, legal immigration is the solution.
Seawitch, I am slightly troubled by your opinions. Yes I understand that the type of thing you portray with your example happens. I am just a bit cautious about the criminality aspect. Keeping in mind that a lot of these countries people immigrate from are very corrupt, is it valid to judge their juidicial institutions as proof or not proof of someones criminal status and ethics, values or lack of? I am willing to accept that murderers, rapists and other serious offenders should be kept out but perhaps we should draw a line somewhere and not put them all under the same basket as is with the case of political refugees - a special case of the example i'm trying to demonstrate here.
One could argue that in a controlled system only a fraction of applicants would be accepted so you might as well choose from the ones with no criminal record - fine that would be great - but in real life it doesn't happen that way. It is impossible to police all of, say Greece's borders. So what next?
Now that they are here something has to be done about it.
Deviousdiva, obviously you can't ask people to pack up and leave and you can't throw them out by force.
But let's look at this from another angle. Obviously people immigrate because of bad conditions in their respectable countries. It is the result of the huge differences in quality of life and economics that people leave their countries. And since this doesn't look like it's going to be changing in the near future we're going to have to deal with it. If Europe is so troubled about the influx of immigrants then idealy the conditions (economic and political) have to be addressed through investments and job creation in developing nations.
Two points, first in response to SeaWitch who wrote "But I certainly can't agree that all the illiterate sociopaths with contagious diseases should be accepted as immigrants"
I am not advocating this either. There are very stringent checks on people when they apply for residency or work permits here and elsewhere. (and again we are talking about legal immigration only). Mistakes are made but I thnk they are quite isolated cases. The trouble for many anti-immigration people is that immigrants do not remain immigrants. They have children who are born here, They get older, they get sick, they use the services of the country they live in. Yes, you are right we can and do choose our friends, based on what we find desirable at the time but sometimes they can turn out to be wasters too. What do we do with them? We don't call for them to be sent to "crap friend" country and we don't lump all our friends together and diss them all because of the actions of a few.
Buruburu. I hope you did not misunderstand what I wrote (which I didn't write very well but it was late excuse excuse) I do not advocate throwing people out once the work is done or forcing people to pack up and leave. I was being sarcastic. It didn't come across I think. What I meant in my response to eff was the opinion of the anti-immigrant people, certainly in England, is that they want both. People to come and do jobs when they are needed and the ability to get rid of them when they are no longer needed. This is not going to happen unless countries pass laws that allow them to do it. I sometimes just wish they would stop moaning and blaming immigrants and decide which way to jump.
Hi scruffy american, hope your christmas was relaxing and fun? Is your daughter old enough to enjoy the festivities or does she just like eating the pretty paper wrapped around the gifts?
As to your comment. I was thinking the other day how strange it is that we Brits, Americans, Canadians etc think of ourselves as expats not immigrants. I never once thought of myself as an immigrant. What's that all about? Is it a snobbery thing. We come from wealthy countries so we are more desirable and deserving than those from poorer countries? Is it that we have choice and others don't? I could move pretty much anywhere because of my British passport and I would be an expatriate not an immigrant. No such luck for someone who happens to be born in Albania.
I see no difference in definition only in perception.
Immigrant: A person who leaves one country to settle in another.
Expatriate: One who has taken up residence in a foreign country.
Buruburu...you state a very valid point. Criminals are often deemed criminals by corrupt states. A criminal can be someone who is a strong advocate of women's rights and democracy in a closed society. But I think you misinterpreted my intention in my post. (Or most likely, I didn't make myself crystal clear.) Anyway, I'm talking about convicted murderers, rapists, paedophiles, etc. I will never agree to legalizing anyone who falls into those categories. Ever.
Diva...Legal immigration prerequisites will never be perfect because the humans running them are imperfect but it doesn't mean that we can't at least try screen prospective immigrants on an individual basis. I think more importance should be placed on the type of person someone is rather than his country of origin or his financial means. Being poor is not a crime. Neither is being of a different race or ethnicity from the host country. Sure, it makes adaptation a lot easier when you have those things in place but people shouldn't be excluded just because they don't have a Swiss bank account either. If a prospective immigrant shows the desire to adapt, learn the language and work in his new country, then that ought to count for something as well. You mention in your next post that many Canadians, Brits and Americans consider themselves to be expats and not immigrants. It is a sort of snobbery. A "we-re-not-like-them kind of attitude". I, myself, have no problem stating that I'm an immigrant and the descendant of a long line of immigrants. I'm proud to be one. I've met so many wonderful people from so many different countries that I can't imagine living in just one place for the rest of my life. If my husband told me we were leaving for Latvia tomorrow, my bags would have been packed yesterday. LOL
Yes, I do remember. Sometimes I even get nostalgic for those heated debates (well not so much).
You are absolutely right SeaWitch. Snobbery it is. I personally have no problem that I AM an immigrant. But I think of myself as an expat. That is how I am treated by my friends and my neighbours. As an interesting person from another country who chose to live in Greece, However, we have huge arguments and discussions about immigrants who are somehow in a different category to me. I can only conclude that this is because of perception and not reality.
It most definitely is perception. A perfect illustration of that fact is the treatment my Polish friend receives compared to mine. I am treated better even though her Greek is better than mine, she graduated from university while I'ma drop out and she's a far nicer person than I am. They hear her Polish accent and dismiss her straight out the gate while they compliment me on my attempts to speak Greek and I'm nowhere near as fluent as she is. The stories I could tell you about what's happened to her would make your hair turn white.
I have a colleague and very good friend at work who is greek canadian and she doesn't speak greek very well since she's only been here for a year. She's very pale with red hair and could easily pass for an east european. She was telling me how when she entered shops she would get awful service until she started speaking in english and people realized that she was north american and how that made such a great difference in the way people treated her. So yes, it is a matter of perception.
Hello and Merry Christmas my dear humanitarians. If "buruburu" was taken aback by SeaWitch's comments, whom I feel she had a fair response to immigration given her penchant to lean left even though the cognitive elitism-esqe policy she proposes is fraught with pitfalls, let me send him into a coma with my response. I do not think there should be ANY immigration of genetically and culturally distant peoples into western nations. This madness has run its course and we are seeing the effects before our very eyes. It was and is a stupid, self-righteous, faux morally superior, leftist ideology that has wreaked havoc on our societies. For people to continue to advocate such distasterous policy onto the masses of western nations implies they are completely ignornant of current affairs or are prone to masochism. Healthy societies are homogenous societies. This has been shown from the beginning of time. Multicultural societies have all collapsed in due time.
Oh, buruburu states...obviously you can't ask people to pack up and leave and you can't throw them out by force. Let me direct all to THIS little, poorly publicized event taking place. We have Israel sending their non-Jewish immigrants packing if they do not meet each of these criteria:
• The child was born in Israel, is at least 10 years old and has lived here continuously.
• His parents entered Israel legally with a visa and permit according to the Entry to Israel Law before the child was born.
• The child is studying in an Israeli school or graduated from one, speaks Hebrew and his deportation would involve "cultural exile" to a country to which he has no cultural connection.
Even an Israeli who is against this policy chirps, totally oblivious to the hypocrisy of her statement and her country's meddling in foreign affairs:
Tal said she was ashamed of the government for its attitude towards the kids."I don't have a problem with Israel closing its skies to foreigners," she said. "But we cannot slough our responsibility to the children who are already here.
Well, if Ms Tal has no problem closing the skies of Israel to "foreigners", then I see and raise her 10-fold in regards to Greece and her skies.
Ahh. ethnocentrist. Happy Christmas to my dear hmm...right-wing thinkers? And I thought you were too busy with your own blog!
I think I know some of your views about immigration (something like zero immigration) and I do not want to go over old ground. However, are you saying Greece should follow Israel? And if you are going down that road, what will happen?
I have been reading a lot recently from the "other side" or from "you right-wing guys" who talk a lot about the Jewish (or Muslim or Black, brown or yellow) plot to replace or eradicate you "whites" in the US and elsewhere. Are you saying you agree with the very same people? Who talk the same talk. Not sure I understand? Or is this a fight between extremists which maybe we (humanitarians) should stay out of?
I'm never too busy for you, my dear Diva. :) I think "right-wing" is too confining and inaccurate. I prefer "normal"-thinking for future reference because what I espouse is in actuality normal and has been up until about 20 to at most 30 years ago. That is when the leftists decided to tinker with human nature and replace it with ideology.
I think and want the west, including Greece, to rid itself of the leftist ideology cancer that is succumbing it. That is first and foremost. I have stated before that leftists are usually the most intolerant and racist bastards that walk this earth. They promote these suicidal policies to make themselves feel better yet they do it from the safety of their all white clubs. They do not want and have no intention to intermingle with the "unwashed". At least a "racist" like me actually does have many non-white acquaintances and true friends. That's more than any damn leftist can say.
Now, after expunging society of the leftist cancer(BTW I do not necessarily view people here as leftist but more left leaning moderates, so rest assured. Though Diva, you are by far the most left leaning of the bunch and are perilously close to the line....), then it would be easy to send home all of the illegal immigrants in most if not all western nations. Subsequently, the legal immigrants would have to be looked at next and it would have to be a case by case basis. Need, length of stay, assimilation, home nation would have to be looked at and family members would be treated differently. A moratorium on immigration should be placed for some time, maybe 5 years or so. When (or if) immigration would be restarted, it should be merit based and from areas deemed assimilatable. No more than 5% of a nation should be foreigners and citizenship should NOT be given freely and strict criteria should be used to allow any citizenship to foreigners.
I'm sure some are thinking, thank God he isn't running things or what a nutcase. However, we need to be realistic about things and regrettably even I have humanitarian inklings. There are others who are less tolerant than I, for sure. As much as we like to think that we can "whiten" Europe and the west, that probably will not happen completely or to the satisfaction of many "normal" thinkers. With that said, many of the feckless and useless can and should be sent packing. We do not need to destroy ancient homelands on the basis of humanitarianism and squatters rights. Do we?
Racism
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
Although you didn't argue for superiority you pretty much fit the above description. You say:
"I do not think there should be ANY immigration of genetically and culturally distant peoples into western nations."
Now how shallow is that? First of all Mr cognitive proletarit-esque, my dear petit garcon, culture and race are never static. They are both affected by evolution. Need I point out that race is an illusion? Forgive me for stereotyping but haven't you heard that colour is skin deep? Don't take my word for it, check this:
http://www.newsreel.org/guides/race/whatdiff.htm
As for culture, let me put it this way. If I put you into a time machine and sent you to downtown Athens circa 1900 you wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone let alone identify with that so called culture, in fact you'd feel culturally closer to your average post millennium Albanian immigrant than your great grandfather, so please spare me the buruburu.
You say: "Healthy societies are homogenous societies. This has been shown from the beginning of time. Multicultural societies have all collapsed in due time. "
Really? How is that so? References please.
As for your Israeli event. It's funny that you mention Israel. A blinding beam of superior moral ground, the most representative of 'western' states, the light that shines in the darkness that is the middle east! Don't get me started on Israel AKA Terror Incorporated. Where do I start, illegal occupation of Arab land (according to international law) and in direct contradiction to the fourth Geneva Convention?
( http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/13475.shtml )
I'll leave it at that for now.
Ok so I read the Jerusalem post article, however I read all 3 pages of it, rather than conveniently extracting those bits and pieces that you found suitable to demonstrate a skewed point of view. Oh, you failed to mention the fact that the Association for Civil Rights in Israel found that " the two conditions ... Israeli birth and legal entry by the parents - were improper."
The following quote is from headmaster of one of the schools involved: "These children sleep with one eye open," said Tal. "They've heard the door close in the middle of the night when police took away their father or uncle. They don't have the privilege of deep sleep."
One of the children facing deportation (17 yrs old)
"Escobar said that four policemen and two Interior Ministry representatives knocked on his door at 3 a.m. to arrest an illegal worker who was sleeping in his family's home. ...Downstairs, there were two more policemen flanking the entrance with a Doberman Pinscher,"
And another(16 years old):
"I didn't want to open the door," she recalled. "The policeman banged on the door and shouted. I started to cry. He left but returned at night. We decided to move. They think we're not people, that we're animals."
Way to go mon petit garcon, let's adopt Israelis policies, in fact, let's raise that 10-fold and summon up all our immigrants to omonia square and burn them at the stake.
But seriously you think that these actions represent even the most skewed adoption of Greek ethnocentricity? This is pure evil!
The funny thing is, if we were to put students in today's classrooms under some test of 'Greek-ness', given how ethnocentric the public school curriculum is especially with regards to history, we'd have to deport Greek students, since it seems that year after year it is the immigrants children and not ours that excel in education (see flag carrying saga).
Finally, I feel like I have less in common with you than the immigrants in this country, you seem to have no humanitarian and democratic values and I consider you not assimilated with the rest of Greek society and therefore - if I could - I would propose a motion to export you to Israel where perhaps you'd feel more at home there.
Ok I won't, but consider yourself warned.
ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Oh, are your finished? Whew, now I'm convinced that everything that is REAL is in fact wrong. Thanks for clarifying. LOL
Please, do not insult me with that odious, amorphous, politically correct, bilge you use for "racism". Racism is by true definition, and I quote..."A belief that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races which leads to discriminatory, oppressive, or abusive behavior towards members of another race". Merriam-Webster, 1976 edition. That is racism before it became the new heretical buzz word. And uhhh, just what was the purpose of plastering your version of "racism" right at the top? Was it to scare me into submission? LOL Oh no! Not racism! You've learned well young Jedi the ways of the politically correct, race denying, Marxist.
Speaking of which, how can there be racism when there is no such thing as race, Bubu? Is that something like having you cake and eating it too? Spare us ALL that crap because no one believes the "social construct" of race. Ask Diva if she knows what race is. That nonsense is pure university garbage that is believed by the most gullible, and that would be you. If there is no such thing as race, Bubu, please explain to me how a company like DNAprint Genomics is able to identify the RACE of people using only a sample of blood, or hair, or a few skin cells? They are able to determine the race of victims and perpetrators in the field of forensic science and determine one's ancestry by DNA. Is it just dumb luck they get it right virtually every single time?
While your thinking about that one, explain to me how a drug such as BiDil has been shown to improve Black patients with heart failure while not being beneficial to other races with heart failure? As an aside, I love the quote of "self-identified black patients", meaning they are politically correct about this being a RACE drug. Well, since it seems to work on self-identified people who call themselves a socially constructed term, BLACK, then if I ever get heart failure, I'll be sure to call myself black in order for the drug to help me! LOL See how stupid the left sounds when they try and navigate around LIES?
As for your "culture" strawman, so what? Just what exactly is this "big deal" that the circa 1900 Athenians were different than modern Athenians? They were still Athenians genetically, were they not? Have you found a way to bring them back to current day that this is even an issue? It is their genes that have created modern Athens and the "culture" of other races would never have done that. That is apparently where you are clumsily trying to go with this. Since we do not have much in common with the 1900 Athenians culturally, why shouldn't we invite culturally distant races to Greece? Right Bubu? Wrong. Race creates culture and culture IS race, Bubu. Remember that. Race is ancestry writ large. Remember that too.
Do you actually need examples of all the failed countries or empires that splintered or withered away due to multiculturalism? Places like Ancient Rome, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, ever hear of them? China and Japan, two racially homogenous countries have been around how long now? And if you're going to ask should we be like the Japanese, my answer is YES, in advance.
And should we be like Israel? I used Israel as an example to the hypocrisy of the west and Israel itself. The west bleats about humanitarianism and third world immigration as does Israel FOR the west, yet no one says anything about Israel's ANTI-humanitarian, racial preservation policies. Yes, we should follow that example as well.
Yes Scruffy, you are wrong for a multitude of reasons.
I believe it was Scarfi a while back who pleaded with me on how "desperate" the Africans must have been to storm the fences from Morocco into Spain knowing they would be killed. How is that plea different than the one where Palestinians blowing themselves up at their desperation at the hands of the Israelis?
BTW, I do not condone that at all and it shows how different cultures attack problems.
Hahaha, actually yes my upbringing has something to do with that. Although I'm not anti-semitic and one of my close friends is Greek-Jewish, I even had an Israeli girlfriend at one point. I have a serious problem with the state of Israel and it's policies. Scruffy I condemn the bomb-strappers as strongly mind you, besides they don't really benefit the palestinian people anyway.
Anyway, i'm tired of this whole mid-east issue, I've spent about 10 years arguing both with Arabs and Israelis about their percieved rightiousness on the issue and I decided I'm not going to anymore. Let me just say they are both right and wrong for different reasons and the sooner they realize that and compromise the sooner the killings will end on both sides.
You want to see hard core anti-american anti-Israeli arab blogging? I present thee septic.blogspot.com have a ball. I'm just Bubu compared to that guy! That should occupy you for the next century or so.
btw how do you insert a link in a comment?
Hi guys, glad this hasn't completely out of control. One thing though, please have the curtesy to use people's screen names properly and not shorten them or change them into rather demeaning and , quite frankly childish, insults. Thank you.
scruffy american and buruburu. I have no objection to you posting links on the comments if they serve as sources or places of interest to add to the discussion. I am personally careful about posting links to extremist sites for obvious reasons. (and I would delete comments that are blatantly just out to advertise them)
As scruffy american wrote under technical help (in the sidebar) there is a link to a page that shows you basic html for many different purposes.
Now back to the issues. Ethnocentrist wrote in response to buruburu
"Ask Diva if she knows what race is"
Yes, I do know what race is. I am, as you are all sick of hearing, mixed race. This does not have any bearing on whether I am a good/bad, better/worse person than anyone else.
I have a huge problem with the generalisations that people make based on race. White versus black etc. White people are not all the same. Black people are not all the same.I believe that until we can get away from this "us and them" mentality, we will constantly have problems. Yes, I am a humanitarian (often used to insult). I am proud of the fact that I care more about people than I care about skin colour. I work just as hard questioning myself as I do questioning others.
One interesting point that was made by buruburu was that of having more in common with immigrants than perhaps to someone of the same race who is politically distant. I think that is true. I feel I have much more in common with my friends (of racially and culturally different backgrounds) who are politically closer to my views. If I met a person of exactly the same racial background as me who advocated separating of races, or blamed white people or black people for everything, or argued superiority of one group over another, I would have nothing in common with them except genes. Should I join them and fight for our little corner because of some bits of material inside our cells? I think not.
Welcome back scarfalonius. Hope you had a good time wherever you have been! Yes, the questions are easy and the answers complex as you say. I think education must be key.Of both immigrants and hosts. For me the group of people we should be looking at, because they "ARE the future" are the children. Teaching children (and I mean all children) to be proud of who they are and have respect for other people, to be interested in the world around them, to be responsible human beings. Wouldn't that go a long way?
I have never met a racist/xenophobic/anti-semitic/homophobic baby (and I know I never will) but I have seen four and five year olds beginning to repeat the tired old rubbish of their parents.
Got to get them young. As we see from the example of Prussian Blue (they are thirteen or fourteen aren't they?) we have a real responsibilty to teach young people the real values of being human. They have been brainwashed and manipulated (home-schooled by racists) and this is the result. I cannot imagine how it must feel to be thirteen and have so much venom and hate in me and to be hated in return. I was climbing trees and riding my bike and I couldn't give a monkey's boll*ck what colour my friends were. It's sad.
I agree, scruffy american, america is for everyone including the ornamentals!? LOL
scruffy american, I actually thought it was funny imagining all these porcelain and glass figurines taking part in debates!
Mike, to sit there and berate and/or dismiss me for months now and pretend to be "morally superior" to me because I have the nerve to speak of the "unspeakable", then turn around and just make fun of two teens simply because they...uhhh...want to be with white people is beyond hypocrisy. It is fucking sick in my book. At least if you're going to talk the talk, then make sure to walk the walk.
Do all of you make fun or condemn black kids who wear baggy clothes, caps on sideways, talk in "ebonics", call each other bro and homie, flunk out of school, and put caps in each other's asses?
Do all of you make fun or condemn Muslim youth who burn 20,000 cars over 18 days in Paris?
Somehow the examples above are reason for concern and understanding despite the murder and mayhem they cause, though two white girls, whose only crime is to be racially aware and have their lineage remain white are deserve the liberal scorn.
I'm not the one losing it, buddy. You and your side have lost the war and this is a perfect example of why. People are awakening to the bluster of the left and are realizing it is nothing but a house of cards.
Is this your "morally superior" side shining through now? LOL
Please...
Etnocentrist, something obviously touched a nerve? Prussian Blue have been covered by a lot of mainstream media. I am surprised you haven't heard of them! I said they were home-schooled by racists. I was not equating home-schooling with racism and I am not sure why you read that into the sentence. Anyway, I read back over the comments and cannot for the life of me see any hate directed at the girls.
Scarfalonius wrote "Those girls can't sing at all well, you know, actually they're awful"
I wrote "I cannot imagine how it must feel to be thirteen and have so much venom and hate in me and to be hated in return"
Scruffy american wrote about a radio show he heard "I listen to KFI Radio from Los Angeles over the internet and heard a show about these Prussian Blue girls. They said they look like the Racist version of the Olsen twins and the whole morning show (Bill Handel & Crew) were making fun of how horrible the girl's singing was. Basically, said the same thing you said that with all that money the white supremes get, couldn't they get some better singers?"
I said I thought it was sad and the other two wrote that they can't sing.
mike, who I assume is the fourth out of the "hate-filled four", didn't comment on the girls.
The only hate I see on this post actually came from you.
King Limp Dick? Bat Boy motherfucker? Countless use of fuck, fucking and a Fuuuuuuck!
Something seems to trigger your anger and I am not at all convinced it comes from what you read here. I could be wrong of course, but I feel you often interpret what people write to suit your own view of us. I read your post last night and I felt very angry and insulted. I decided to wait till now to answer you rather than just react in anger.
You misinterpret anger and disgust with hate, which is quite common in this day and age. Also, this new definition of hate seems to cover all, except when directed at whites and it doesn't even stop at the adult/child boundary. I am more angry at you and Scarf because you both are hypocrites. Without rehashing the entire event, Scarf is just an indoctrinated, bleeding heart, hypocrite asshole who spews his venom because that is what he thinks he is supposed to do. IF he actually was a concerned citizen of the world as he continually bleats, then he would be upset and worried about the two girls and the potential for them to grow into screwed up adults after their upbringing by their white nationalist mother. Did we see that? No, we did not. We saw ridicule and scorn. So much for Mr. Empathic.
As for you, I read countless words on this blog about this and that injustice and humanitarian slight. With all that, you were also quick to jump in on the issue. I quote you:
As we see from the example of Prussian Blue (they are thirteen or fourteen aren't they?) we have a real responsibilty to teach young people the real values of being human. They have been brainwashed and manipulated (home-schooled by racists) and this is the result. I cannot imagine how it must feel to be thirteen and have so much venom and hate in me and to be hated in return.
As I stated previously, you want state run indoctrination instead of parental indoctrination because the state run one suits you currently. However, if the state run one droned on about racial homogeny and anti-miscegenation, I highly doubt you would want that, now would you? You would be the first on these blogs advocating home schooling. Let's ignore the fact that these two do not "hate" simply because they want to be around whites, which I have shown and it has been proven to be NORMAL. So, let's leave that and maybe you can answer me WHY these two are "hated"? What is it that they have done that deserves hate from the world? Another question, WHY are people comfortable with hating two teens? WHAT is their crime that they deserve such hate?
There's no use going on because the hypocrisy is clear and my questions are rhetorical. As is so typical of whacked out leftists, the only thing that matters is the ideology regardless of the conflicts in logic.
Do people not understand English or is my writing so unintelligible that they there is a need to create strawmen? The issues are hypocrisy, faux moral superiority, attacking and ridiculing teens, i.e. children, and blind liberalism. The issue is NOT their music nor their words. We have two girls, and after listening to their songs I can honestly say are not exceptionally talented, though not the issue; who have caused such a stir by the tolerants. Though one looks the other way with the fun loving prose from such esteemed humanitarians such as Ice T, Ice Cube, 'Fiddy', Tupac, Snoop, Dre, NWA, and many more who are ALL adults that wrote their lyrics instead of justing singing them.
Feast your eyes on the world you promote and the behaviour that you condone all the while feeling good about yourselves beating down 13 year olds. My initial post and assessment stands.
I repeat. I wrote "They have been brainwashed and manipulated (home-schooled by racists)" This is just a statement of fact. How on earth do you get to this "You want the STATE to indoctrinate children, from birth no less, on the wonder and beauty of anti-racism, multiculturalism, and white GUILT" from my sentence. I am for home-schooling, have never said otherwise and have even written several times that I have considered it. The only reason I mentioned it was that these two girls were kept at home and indoctrinated by a self-confessed white nationalist.
Just to add: as your next comment came in while I was writing this. By saying, the girls can't sing (which is the worst thing anyone said about them) I don't think anyone here is saying that hate in any form is more or less acceptable because the singer/writer is black, white or green. You are seeing things that are not there.
we have a real responsibilty to teach young people the real values of being human.
Who's "we"? Society? The State? A group of "right thinking" adults? Who has more responsibility for the care of a child than their parents, in your mind?
By saying, the girls can't sing (which is the worst thing anyone said about them) I don't think anyone here is saying that hate in any form is more or less acceptable because the singer/writer is black, white or green.
Right. At least I live by those ideals. This is just not the case amongst the left and certain commenters here. Also, you never did touch upon the issue of who hates these girls, why adults would hate children, and what they did to deserve hate? Those were your words.
By "we" I mean us. Adult people human beings parents and educators. We who ARE society. Parents, of course, have the responsibilty for the care of a child and when our children are in school (the State), we care about what they are being taught, how they are being taught don't we?
I also try to live by those ideals too, ethnocentrist and I believe most of us do. How do you know these ideals are not lived by the commentaters here?
Who hates these girls you ask? Just search around on the net and read about what people say about them. They have recieved death threats the same way as other people who sing or rap about hate have. It is horrible and yes, a far cry from just saying they can't sing. It is not their fault.They are being manipulated as I said. I feel very sorry that these two very young girls have been pushed by their mother and taken up by National Vanguard (a site you have in your own sidebar links) They are the ones responsible for putting these girls in such a dangerous position.
Talk about hypocrisy. You stand up for them against the petty insult that they can't sing, because they are white. I'm sure if they were black (and singing the same kind of thing against white people) you would not be saying this.
Once again, no-one here has expressed hatred towards these girls (concern yes, sadness yes, shock yes, but not hate)
I am going out now. Yes, even us nasty little commie/marxist/bleedingheart liberal/lefty idiots get invited to parties. Please try and keep it civil while I'm gone.
Diva,
My apologies for becoming so irate about the recent topic. I should not have reacted that way, despite me firmly believing in what I wrote. It was not called for, given this is your place. I will not do that again, out of respect to you and what you have spent time creating. Sorry again.
I also apologize to Mike and Scruf.
Thank you ethnocentrist for the apology. I am still unsure where the anger came from, but apology accepted. As always you are welcome to post but let's try and keep it civil whatever our opinions are.
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