Friday, November 25, 2005


Apologies for the absence and lack of new posts this week. I was attacked by some horrible virus. Anyway, I'm back and here is some more food for thought from Athens News. An article by John Psaropoulos on the different perspectives of first and second generation immigrants and their host societies. "It is the second generation, which attends Greek schools, has Greek friends and grows up with Greek television, music and books, that will seek - and become aware of its success or failure in seeking - sameness." As always, comments and insights are  welcome.

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At 11/25/2005 03:38:00 PM, Anonymous sha said...

i forgot its friday I have not bought Athens News yet.

But the thing is even the second generation integrates, what about the local kids? They hear their parents ranting against the xenoi.

The filipino community here has a Philippine school where English and our language is the curriculum, am not very happy about that because they create their own little world and community. I believe its far better that they go to local schools and intergrate into the society.

I talk to the parents to let their kids assimilate to the culture, language not to feel isolated.

At 11/25/2005 06:30:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Hi sha, Actually, this is from last weeks Athens news. I alao do not think segregated schools are the answer or a possibility. Usually, they are private anyway. I think when it comes to local kids and second generation immigrant kids being educated together there are many ways for the children to learn about other cultures as well as the host culture. (as a series of projects not taking over from the country's culture. Even when I was at school we had international day, where kids would bring food from home (that was from their own culture) and then everyone would try the varieties. Or children would write and share stories from their own experiences, or bring photos of their families that they would put up on a huge collage. It doesn't sound like much but early exposure to difference in a positive way can go a long way. My son goes to public school and went through an stage of wanting to be like everyone else including "doing his cross' and wanting a greek name. I never made an issue of not wanting him to do it and let him go to the church and do all the things his classmates do. He speaks perfect greek and is doing really well in state school. However, he takes my food to school for lunchtimes and his friends have shown enormous interest in what he is eating. He takes english cakes to school for celebrations and they get chomped down and parents have even asked me for recipies! (food is a great leveller with kids) He went to england to stay with grandparents this year and shared his adventures with his entralled classmates. If we can educate kids into realising that diversity is not threatening to them or their culture before other ways of thinking take hold, we are paving the way to a more integrated future for them. Parents could learn something from the kids at my sons school. These are a few small things but there are thousands of ways for kids to learn about each other. What about through music, art, theatre, dance, poetry, stories.

I do not think that children should go to segregated schools. However, I understand why "foreign" parents worry about their children being behind if greek is their second language and there is not much provision for "catch up" or extra classes for them here in Greece. I think this will happen in time but in the meantime, it is difficult for parents to know what to do.

At 11/25/2005 06:37:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Glad your back dd, hope you're OK now. btw, I can't get that Athens News link to open.

I think that's an interesting point sha has made. I'm all in favour of integration but I'm also in favour of retaining cultural identities. I think it's a question of getting a balance, so people don't lose sight of their heritage but don't isolate themselves (individually or as an ethnic group) in their host country.

At 11/25/2005 06:39:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

uh, my seplling is getting atrosius

At 11/25/2005 06:49:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Hi mike. Feeling much better, thanks. Sorry about that, the link should be working now.(my blogging programme "ecto" is not very good with links). Thank goodness for spell check. I often write in another programme and copy/paste.

On to your comment, I agree with you completely. It's a matter of balance.

At 11/25/2005 09:52:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I stumbled into your blog rather by accident and I have to say, quite frankly, I abhor it.

Creating a blog, in which a country is criticized for not being tolerant towards immigrants is quite a joke.

Especially if this country has over 2,2 million immigrants (many of them illegal immigrants), with the majority of them being from a different cultural sphere and with immigrants who are not able to help a country develop economically because of their skills (or rather lack of skills).

The US which serves as a paradigm for succesful immigration skims for the best talent, therefore you have such a success model over there. Greece with their Albanians and Pakis is an example which will fail/failed. This uncontrolled invasion (I prefer this term over immigration) liquidates the cohesion within a society and the result will be a ethnical/cultural mixture of people who will fall into oblivion in some years.

At 11/25/2005 10:44:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Anonymous. Generally when I stumble across blogs by accident that I hate, I normally move on. I take it that, the fact you have bothered to comment here, something interested you and made annoyed enough to respond. You are entitled to your opinion and you will find a few (very few) who will agree with you but the vast majority here do not. My blog does not sit well with those who oppose immigration of any kind. You are free to add your opinions as long as they do not become insulting or abusive. I have taken to giving warnings. This is your first. I know it will be hard to track you because (as is so often the case) you choose to be anonymous.

Also, invasion is not a synonym for immigration.

At 11/25/2005 10:50:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Anonymous: sorry, but I don’t see the joke. I think your figures are wrong, although that is immaterial. There’s an article in the Athens News which notes how immigrants generally take up the jobs the indigenous population (i.e. Greeks) don’t want. This frees the Greeks to become doctors, scientists and, yes, to go to America if they want to. If you look elsewhere you’ll see a recent report which states that immigrants contribute significantly to social security funds. It also points out that a number of immigrants are employed in construction – generally one of the areas that helps a country develop economically.

At 11/26/2005 05:17:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There’s an article in the Athens News which notes how immigrants generally take up the jobs the indigenous population (i.e. Greeks) don’t want. This frees the Greeks to become doctors, scientists and, yes, to go to America if they want to. If you look elsewhere you’ll see a recent report which states that immigrants contribute significantly to social security funds. It also points out that a number of immigrants are employed in construction – generally one of the areas that helps a country develop economically.

Mike this is pure liberal bullshit. Can we dispense with the fallacy that immigrants are a boon to a host society and that they will do the jobs the natives will not do. Think of what you are saying and think how stupid that really sounds. Then think of the last great empire that became so fat and complacent where the "barbarians" were brought into the state to help feed the depraved Romans. Look how it ended up. Do we not learn anything from history? Are we forever doomed to repeat it?

Riiiight, the natives (Greeks in this case) are too good for regular jobs and they will only be lawyers and doctors. LOL Of course the immigrants who have children will want THEIR children to be lawyers and doctors too. Of course, in the case of the Filipinos above, staying separate will only cause ethnic tension once the numbers become large enough. Of course having immigrants only frees up Greeks from springboarding to the US and then leave Greece to have minority Greeks and majority everything else. Yes Mike, this makes so much logical sense. Especially since it has been refuted clearly by sociologists and economists alike. That doesn't stop you though from repeating it. Does it?

To anonymous, I am one of the few that agrees with your stance. Obviously.

At 11/26/2005 10:08:00 AM, Blogger adfjkaj said...

Hi Ethno,

Are you sure that you are not the anonymous (ethnocentrist type) caricature that we read about earlier on this topic. Your views sound so similar that I just wanted to make sure you weren't pulling our chain, my friend.

Also, Ethno, how come you don't have a blog we can visit, huh? I'd love to read your thoughts on a daily basis. Not that I agree with you ever (oh, ok, maybe once or twice when you said you don't like Commies or anarchists!)

At 11/26/2005 01:40:00 PM, Anonymous Agri said...

scruffy american,

The "caricature" has made quite a few points which you never bothered to addresss. And btw, he knows how to spell--in english, mind you.

At 11/26/2005 04:34:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


I only post under this name and have only one profile. I do not have a blog because I do not have the time to maintain one properly. It takes a fair amount of work to do it right. I do not want to simply post news stories like many in the blog world do (No, not you Diva). I would like to do it similar to SeaWitch's and Diva's blog. Find a topic and expound on it or simply write on a topic. This takes time and energy.

At 11/26/2005 05:38:00 PM, Blogger adfjkaj said...

Ethnos said, "I do not want to simply post news stories like many in the blog world do (No, not you Diva). I would like to do it similar to SeaWitch's and Diva's blog. Find a topic and expound on it or simply write on a topic. This takes time and energy."

But Ethnos, you do place an extra ordinate amount (my perception) of energy into these posts of yours. Maybe a place to rest your soul on-line would be good for you. I'd visit you daily just to see what you are saying. You may ask why? Well, my blood pressure has been low lately and the doctor says that I need something to raise it. Your daily blog, I'm sure, would keep me healthy, and I'd be able to thank you for that!

NOW FOR AGRI: I'm not sure I understood your post. Were you picking on me for some misspelling I made? If so, then you should check your own post, because I believe you spelled the word "address" with 3 S' (sss). If you were just adding to the general comment of Mike berating himself for his spelling, then my apologies. At any rate, could you clear that up so I can sleep tonight. Finally, I didn't address the anonymous poster's comments because I've grown tired of debating each and every new poster with the same tired arguments. They really need to get some new material!

At 11/26/2005 06:01:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

ethnocentrist. I had to laugh. After our last little squabble you now think I would jump to the conclusion that you were talking about my blog? I honesty read all comments IN FULL before I respond. So I would have got it. Anyway, I disagree that you don't have the time or the energy. Even though we do not see eye to eye, I can see that you put a lot of thought and time into your posts here and elsewhere. I reckon you should take the plunge. Then I could come over and visit you!

At 11/26/2005 07:39:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

A little light entertainment from ethnocentrist! Bit of a cop out, mate. As just about everyone else has pointed out, you spend ages ranting on - something I chose not to do. As for posting news, well, everyone (yes, even you) has the chance to respond - freedom of choice where they want to do it, if they do. Hm, would be nice to come over to your blog, ec... maybe.

At 11/26/2005 09:24:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Ethnocentrist over there has a particular "thing" about me which goes back quite a while now. I have really got to him. Or maybe, he can't accept that he's fallen in love with a heathen!

My dear Diva, how on earth did you know? Woman's intuition? LOL Sorry for the imposition, however I am not stalking you or anything of the sort. I googled my name for a particular reason and looked what popped up. Look, I truly am sorry for causing you pain, however this subject goes way beyond you and me. It is of great importance for all, whether they realize it or not. Of course I realize that you would take it much more personally than others, however what I say must be said. People need to be educated and hopefully brought out of the PC funk they find themselves in. I also had no idea when I first came here that you were black. In addition, despite my firm beliefs about the plight of my ethny and overall race, I do find women of all colors and "most" sizes attractive, or at the very least intriguing. I AM Greek, afterall!! Alas though, our "unfulfilled love" will have to remain unfulfilled because if my wife ever found out about this specific writing, that would be the end of the Ethnocentrist. ;)

Seriously though, I do have a private blog that is for me, primarily. I write posts about what I view as important and use it for a mini reference of sorts. I do not have the time to maintain it regularly. The writings have been sporadic and only when I had the inclination to put time into it. I have more pressing responsibilities than maintaining a blog, keeping it current as well as entertaining, and weeding through comments. Hope you all understand. Even you Mikey, for I would sure hate that you were deprived in any way.

At 11/26/2005 09:48:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Ethny, so someone else has noticed, huh? Anyway, what's ya blog like? Do we get a change of record or is it all rants? Still a cop out, mate. You can't make time for your own blog so you haunt here? Hope the mrs. doesn't find out - kinda miss ya.

At 11/26/2005 10:00:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mikey, its one thing to write up a post that takes only a few seconds to minutes and another to upkeep a blog appropriately.

One man's rant is another man's verifiable facts. Wouldn't you agree, Mike?

At 11/26/2005 10:20:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Ethny, you miss the point that's been made: you write long posts here - so that isn't a reason for not spending time on a blog of your own. However, that is up to you. But your excuse is just that. And you are claiming to be the arbiter of what an appropriate blog is?

How about we go over to your blog and discuss this?

At 11/26/2005 10:31:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

OK now. Let's get back to the post. What does the future hold for those second generation immigrants in Greece (actually we're talking about quite a lot of third generation now). Are we going to ignore the issues as usual? Kick them all out? Or deal with it?

At 11/26/2005 10:51:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Good point. If the 'kick them all out' attitude should prevail, how far back does it go?

At 11/26/2005 11:47:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Good point. The British National Party USED to say that they would "repatriate" all new immigrants. The second generation would be sent to the country of their immigrant parent/parents. In case of marriage and mixed race children, the foreign parent and child would be expelled and the "pure" spouse would be given the option to go with them or stay in the country. They never got to what they would do with third and fourth generation and beyond. They do not speak of these things now (in the last 5 years or so) and especially with local elections coming up in 2006. They are presenting a more palatable face to gain support but I believe their intentions have not changed.

Nick Griffin, head of the BNP (also a holocaust denier, who critisized David Irving for saying a FEW Jews were killed!) explains "The BNP policy of compulsory repatriation of non-whites should be abandoned. Instead the organisation should go to the electorate with a programme of halting immigration now and sending illegal immigrants back. The BNP changed their policy so to bring it more in line with the kind of thing that can be seen on any tabloid front page. Griffin was explicit that this was an electoral ploy and not a fundamental shift in BNP ideology."

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about the BNP but their views on getting rid of foreigners have been watered down. Why? Not a change of heart. No. People would not vote for them if they talked about repatriation. They have not really answered the questions yet. What are you going to do with all the people who are here, legally and legitimately, and who are not going away.

At 11/27/2005 12:20:00 AM, Blogger Mike said...

One of the follies of this is that, in the short term it unites the nation against foreigners, but then it becomes very divisive. As the saying goes: first they picked on the Jews, then they picked on… ...on me.

Once the initial satisfaction of ‘people power’ died, and things didn’t get any better, Greeks would turn on Greeks, claiming a longer ancestry as some form of social superiority. I wonder how any descendants of, say, Kapodistrias (sp?), would fare?

At 11/27/2005 12:46:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Devious Diva,

this is the kind of double standard that is so common of "liberals". I expressed my opinion very clearly here, without insulting or swearing. I stand by my opinion.

The answer is the announcement of some form of censoship and the authority that the expressed opinion on this blog is correct and chiseled on stone.

It is apparent that you have a hidden agenda for creating this blog, since no problem exists in Greece concerning immigrants. As an immigrant you are neither persecuted nor harassed, nor do you have any disadvantages in comparison to the Greek population; the rule of law protects immigrants.

Quite the contrary is the case. They built mosques, they start to claim, they create a parallel society, they create problems (immigrants are top in criminal statistics i.e. burglary, thieves, drug traficking etc. etc.)

If your blog focused on Turkey for example I would understand the purpose of this blog, since apparent violations of basic human rights occur there. If you mentioned Pakistan, the Muslim states I would understand the purpose of your blog. No mention of this of course. Instead you hidebehind your computer and try to find one, two news articles on the net to post them on your blog, to prove that Greece is a hell for immigrants. Of course you have some co-ideologists (who pursue also a hidden agenda for the one or the other reason), like the guy who posted before me, who tries to explain that 2,2 immigrants, over 20% of the population (!!) [where in Europe do you have such a high figure, especially with 600 000 illegal immigrants? ] are in fact needed and absorbed by the Greek economy. (the follow up question is of course, why then are most of them unemployed)

This is pathetic.

I tolerate some kind of immigration, when a small number of immigrants enrich the host country culturally and can be absorbed in the economy. (note the religion and/or cultural values of immigrants need not to be the same with thehost country). An example for this would be the 70 000 Greeks, 300 000 Italians and Yugoslavians who live in Germany (population of 80 million )today. I welcome such kind orthological immigration.

I do not welcome an invasion like in Greece, where you now have irredentist attempts of a small group of Albanians , and a large unassimilated, uneducated armee of immigrants who can not contribute to anything. The writing on the wall in Kosovo-Metochia where such invasion by the Muslims led to ethnic cleansing of the Serbs and destruction of all cultural monuments of the Serbs will lead to independence now, should alert anybody. Where are your concerns and outcries on this kind of immigration?

At 11/27/2005 05:58:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

anonymous. There were three reasons I warned you on your last post.

ONE: I do not appreciate people coming here and insulting my blog. If you don't like it, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just move on and find another blog that suits you better. There are millions out there. It's called etiquette. There are very few bloggers out there who accept sweeping critisisms about their blogs and the reasons why they keep them. If you have an opinion on the subject matter that is a different issue and you are free to post here.

TWO: Calling Pakistanis "pakis" is not acceptable. Here on my blog or anywhere else. It is a derogatory term for people from Pakistan. Maybe you didn't know that but now you do.

THREE: Your figures are incorrect. Your preference for using the term "invasion" instead of immigration, is ludicrous at best. Your claim that US immigration is sucessful because it "skims for the best talent" is, quite simply, false.

Now, to answer your latest comment.

"The answer is the announcement of some form of censoship and the authority that the expressed opinion on this blog is correct and chiseled on stone"

No. I do not "warn" people for having a different opinion to my own. So far, out of hundreds of comments I have on my blog, I have deleted three. One was a piece of racist garbage. The other two were just personal insults to me and made no contribution to the subject of the post. I have come to the decision, after much questioning and consulting many people, that I would simple delete insulting and derogatory comments. To people who I feel are sliding down that slope I will warn. I have the option of putting "comment moderation" on. Lots of people do it but it is seen by many others as a form of censorship. It is my right, however, on my blog to do whatever I choose. And this is the way I do things here. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. This is not some "liberal" nonsense. This is my blog.

What I choose to blog about is also not for you to judge or critisise. Again, if you don't like the subject go somewhere else. I am sure you can find plenty of blogs that you can understand.

You wrote "Instead you hidebehind your computer and try to find one, two news articles on the net to post them on your blog, to prove that Greece is a hell for immigrants"

I have 108 posts since June. That is approximately one and a half posts per DAY. I am not trying to "prove" anything. It is also not that hard to find material to post. Please read more of this blog before you make such judgements.

As for the rest of the diatribe, I assume then the only immigration you accept is of people you have a personal liking for.

You wrote "orthological immigration". I do not understand what you mean?

I would like to suggest you read my first post in which I explain how this blog came about. I won't put a link here because I guess if you are truly interested in why I blog about these issues in Greece, you will find it for yourself. It's not that hard. Also, I think it wouldn't hurt for you to read more of this blog AND the discussions that have gone on here. That way you would have a better picture of what this is all about.

And there is always the option of going somewhere else that you find more to your taste.

At 11/27/2005 06:46:00 PM, Anonymous Doug Dangur (A Gay Man and a Gay Journalist) said...

DD, You go girl. I've been quietly reading your posts for days here in Kastri. These big sillies are no match for you. And, trust me, because, I'm saying this as a gay man and a gay journalist. Keep up the good work.

At 11/27/2005 06:53:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

Hey doug, good to hear from you again and thanks for the vote of confidence! Come back soon.

At 11/27/2005 07:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I choose to blog about is also not for you to judge or critisise.

Well, this is not exactly true. Your blog is a public one where anyone can come, read, and post if they feel so inclined. By making your blog public, you open yourself up to criticism. Whether you want to be "tolerant" of that criticism is up to you. I agree that is must be constructive criticism and not simple vitriol. If you do not want that, then you should have a members only blog where you can post and then everyone will agree with you. That sort of blog doesn't seem to be very productive though because it is the opposing view that add the spice to places like this.

At 11/27/2005 07:19:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

I agree that my blog is public and open to criticism but what subject I choose to blog about is not. If I was blogging about snakes and you hated snakes , would you come and critisise me for blogging about snakes? I think not. You would find a blog that doesn't have snakes on it.

At 11/27/2005 07:31:00 PM, Blogger adfjkaj said...


Your comments remind me of what you had mentioned to me on that other blog (nameless) that you and I frequent. Although, on that blog, I'm usually the one on the outside looking in and possibly the recipient of scorn. This blog, however, is home territory here for me and my views. But, I enjoy both places, and I hope you do as well. No hard feelings I hope as I really do enjoy your critiques.

At 11/27/2005 07:49:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

scruffy american, glad you didn't mention the name of the blog. I know where you mean and I wouldn't want everyone sneaking off over there now would I?

At 11/27/2005 07:58:00 PM, Blogger adfjkaj said...


Yes, you "gently warned" me in the past about that, so I had hoped you wouldn't be upset if I put (nameless) to refer to it. And I did put a shameless plug for you that your blog was my "home territory". The referals to you from that alone are immeasurable (wink wink).

By the way, if someone does post a link to another blog on my site which is used to address their spectific argument is it ethical to delete their whole post if I find that blog offensive (even though the person who posted it didn't say anything offensive)?

At 11/27/2005 08:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Snakes (Human Rights) is one thing. Snakes (Human Rights) specifically about a SINGLE place where you are a guest, all the while ignoring the Snakes (Human Rights) abuses all over the world, including in your home country and country of original origin is another. That is the issue that most people, including myself, have an issue with.


Your comments are welcome on that other blog, though the only issue is the same as here. To constantly harangue about Greece etc, and then get offended when the US is used in comparison is the issue there.

Same "problem", two different blogs.

At 11/27/2005 08:24:00 PM, Blogger adfjkaj said...


Thanks for the response. But, why do they (responders) have to contrast my comments with the US.

Since some (Me) are complaining about Greece, why not just defend Greece without using the KAF logic. By saying, "Oh America is bad too", in my opinion, is just a cop out. Why not just say, "Maybe you are right Scruffy, and what are we going to do to fix it.

There are many blogs to discuss America but the ones we post on (nameless) generally talk about Greece. If I wanted to defend America, I'd go to those blogs. I just want to discuss issues about Greece, and sometimes complain.

At 11/27/2005 08:25:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

It would not be physically or mentally possible for me to blog, with any kind of coherence, about human rights issues all over the world. Most blogs that cover global issues comprehensively are run by collectives. I chose to be very specific and with a clear and stated intention of starting a dialogue about these issues here in Greece. I feel that it is important. I realise that some people have an issue with that (not many I am glad to say) but they will just have to get over it. I'm not going away anytime soon.

At 11/27/2005 08:40:00 PM, Blogger schatzli said...

OK now. Let's get back to the post. What does the future hold for those second generation immigrants in Greece (actually we're talking about quite a lot of third generation now). Are we going to ignore the issues as usual? Kick them all out? Or deal with it?


At 11/27/2005 08:42:00 PM, Blogger schatzli said...

DD... am proud of your stance.

At 11/27/2005 10:37:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, let me see if THIS will make both Scruffy and Diva understand. Not that I think (some of) your views are wrong, nor that you do not have a right to air them. This goes more to the issue of WHY Greeks get upset at both of you (Diva more than Scruffy) for what is viewed as constantly complaining.

What if I was living in Zimbabwe or Haiti or any other predominately black nation. I set up a blog and then constantly complained about how blacks are and how they treat me (a white male). I decide to ignore all other abuses by the country I'm from and focus only the country which I live in and its people. Wouldn't a few passersby, white and most certainly black, become quite irate with me and tell me I have no idea what I am talking about? Wouldn't they tell me since I am not black, I have no right to constantly talk about the issues involving them and their country? If allowed to speak at all, in reality.

How about if I set up a blog that focuses on the problems that women cause for men? As a male, I have a certain perspective that I would wish to voice. Would women agree with me on these things or would I be called a misogynist pig?

How about an illegal or legal Mexican blogging daily on how he sees the US as oppressive and intolerant? I know what most "Americans" would say to that, including our man Scruffy who has become upset on more than one occasion when even I spoke negatively about America.

You see, you view your positions from ONLY your side. Not the side of the people who you are criticising. I've stated many times that I fully know the problems with Greeks and Greece. Yet it is different when I state it and when "xenoi" state it. Even "xenoi" can state the problems and most will not object. However when it is does incessantly, people get defensive and upset. This is a defense of ethnic interests. Not abnormal at all.

To stay on topic, 2nd and 3rd generation...out. Fourth generation onward is very tricky. Fourth generation with significant intermixing, then yes they can stay. No intermixing and isolated...OUT.

In reality, Greeks are Greek. No one else, really. Only they know the culture and history and only they are pained by the assault on it.

At 11/27/2005 11:28:00 PM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

ethnocentrist. I actually understood what you were saying about people getting the hump about my blog. I got it the first time you brought this up and I still get it! Like I said...

"they will just have to get over it. I'm not going away anytime soon."

I am sorry that you, and a few others, feel pained. Whatever else I am accused of, my blog is certainly not an assault on Greek culture and history. I am talking about here and now. Sometimes, an outsider point of view can be valuable?

Back to the subject. Now I see where you stand. You wrote

"2nd and 3rd generation...out. Fourth generation onward is very tricky. Fourth generation with significant intermixing, then yes they can stay. No intermixing and isolated...OUT"

Aside: Some of my greek friends and readers are going to be a bit worried right about now.

OK. So roughly translated, this means that we will not get to a fourth generation (how can there be a fourth generation without the previous three? ) and therefore there is no need to address the issues. The spanner in the works is; that by the time you get to second/third generation of immigrants, you are talking about citizens. What happens to all the Greek citizens who are sons and daughters, or grandchildren of immigrants? What if this ideology was put in place here? Or in the States. You and me would be neighbours! Yes, really, because unless Greece is going to get out of the EU too, I would still be here and you would be sent back.

I am sure you will have plenty of replies to this comment.

At 11/27/2005 11:34:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Hm, so which of the heroes of the Greek revolution were of Albanian origin and didn't speak any Greek? Can their descendants stay, or will they get booted out, too?

At 11/28/2005 12:27:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

By the way, hi schatzli and thank you for your comment. Come back soonest.

At 11/28/2005 12:37:00 AM, Blogger Mike said...

Yes, think you're right there, schatzli - it takes both sides to integrate. If an immigrant population (in effect) build their own ghettos (hovels, palatial, or in-between)....

At 11/28/2005 12:57:00 AM, Blogger schatzli said...

this thread makes me wonder how my greek -american, greek -australian, greek-british, greek-canadian friends feel?

Their host countries welcomed their papoudes and yayades with open arms and the younger generation intergrate into the american, canadian, australian and british society with a strong greekness identity at their own homes.

Most of my friends are already of the 3rd generations and cannot be called immigrants BUT CITIZENS.

A blog is a personal opinion I believed if you do not like the content, move on .. skip over!

At 11/28/2005 01:04:00 AM, Blogger schatzli said...

hehe i wonder when etny will dig my files on my blog about greece.

At 11/28/2005 01:33:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For the commenters that are so worried about their Greek-"whatever" friends after my comments on where to draw the line of immigrant integration, don't be. Here is a post I made "on another blog" that clearly shows where I stand and where most of you err. Hope this clarifies things.

Diva, in the case I was sent back to Greece, did Jamaica make it into the EU while I was sleeping or something? I do recall stating with significant intermixing as one of my prerequisites in staying. If there has been that in your family tree, then why do you refer to yourself as "black" then? I'm sure you will have a reply to this as well.

To the "Filipena", who states that one becomes automatically a Greek and citizen after 3 generations, I direct her to precedents set by her Asian cousins, both East and South, Arab nations, Israel, and many African nations where it does not matter how many generations a people resided there, they would never be "citizens". My only wish is for Europeans to follow the excellent examples already set by her Asian kin. That shouldn't be a problem, should it?

There is no viable commonality nor comparison between the immigrant waves of the past into places like the US, Australia, Canada, and some parts of Europe. Those waves were invited and were required to settle and/or populate the places in question, or helped in the productivity of the host European countries due to shortage of labour. That is one difference.

The second is that these European(Greek) immigrants of the past did so after going through appropriate channels and paperwork. None of them snuck in and disregarded the hosts to their and the host's detriment.

A third difference is that the European immigrants, even though discriminated against by many Anglo derived host countries, did not cry, moan, wail, seek legal recourse, mewl of discrimination, or march in protest. What they DID do is learn the language (usually English) and assimilate into their host countries. They put their heads down and worked even harder to prove their worth, which they did clearly. Most became successful and their children even more so.

Lastly, the European immigrants of the past still WERE European, that is of similar genetic and cultural stock. With this, they had much commonality with their hosts. The hosts did not have to create some monstrosity named PC or hate laws in order to appease the immigrants because both, the host and immigrants were very similar. That is why the immigrant waves of the past melted into a unified America, Canada, and Australia. Many Greeks feel at home calling themselves British and German as well. The reason is that we are close cousins and total strangers. A very important distinction. Not so at all with our new, unwanted, unneeded, non-assimilating, genetically distant "saviours".

Very simple to understand really, especially after shedding the shackles of PC and white Euro guilt that has been heaped around our collective necks over the last 40-50 years.

Posted by: Ethnocentrist | Sunday, November 27, 2005 at 18:34

At 11/28/2005 01:41:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

we are close cousins and total strangers

Should read...

we are close cousins and NOT total strangers

At 11/28/2005 02:12:00 AM, Blogger schatzli said...

dont worry ethy I wont claim greek citizenship inspite the fact having lived here on and off for the past 22 years.

intergration doesnt mean auto citizenship you know....

the "filipena"....

At 11/28/2005 09:50:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

So we're back to that old chestnut, ethnocentrist. My family tree is, perhaps, more complicated then yours but without giving away personal details, there is a "significant intermixing". Why do I refer to myself as black? Black encompasses a multitude of variations as does white. When there is a little box to tick that accurately describes what I actually am, I will choose that.

In my colourful background, there was no "sneaking in". Appropriate paperwork was filled in. Proper channels were taken. Heads were put down and worth was proved. Your main problem seems to be that you don't like non-european immigration? I can't help you with that. As Europe expands and other "close cousins" and neighbours are joining or have joined I assume you will not have a problem with them emmigrating? Or do you have other limits to your opinion on who is "worthy" to join your club? Skin colour? Eating habits? Height?

At 11/28/2005 10:09:00 AM, Anonymous Doug Dangur (A Gay Man and a Gay Journalist) said...

Darling Diva, I can't wait to hear what Ethni has to say now. I think that black people have done quite a bit for modern man. I'm going to quote the famous Rev. Al Sharpton in America, who although tends to be a bit homophobic (like many religious people), he did make a good point.

He once said, "White folks was in caves while we was building empires. We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it"

Of course, I'm sure that Ethni would dispute this. Does the Reverend have any basis in fact though? What's your thought Diva?

At 11/28/2005 11:35:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

What Al Sharpton and many others says about ancient african civilizations is a hotly debated subject. The denial or brushing aside of african history is common practice. I am sure there are thousands of websites devoted to the "who invented what". Personally, I am not overly concerned about who started, discovered or invented what. What does concern me is that we have accomplished so much but instead of celebrating our acheivements, we fight over who did it first. Does it really matter if Africans invented mathematics or the Greeks invented astrology? Our modern civilisation is such a mess, perhaps we should focus more attention on that instead of sitting back and saying we were great once so we don't have to bother anymore.

At 11/28/2005 04:26:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You and me would be neighbours! Yes, really, because unless Greece is going to get out of the EU too, I would still be here and you would be sent back.

I was only responding to the above. I think we've dealt with the "black" issue and was not re-opening anything.

In my colourful background, there was no "sneaking in". Appropriate paperwork was filled in. Proper channels were taken. Heads were put down and worth was proved.

Very funny. LOL I like that.

Your main problem seems to be that you don't like non-european immigration?

Well, that is the crux of the problem, isn't it? Europe IS for Europeans. We no longer are in times of nomadic tribes that wander the countrysides and settle areas. We have nations with boundaries, laws, rules, and citizenry with culture that is ancient. Europe is not an "immigrant" continent.

Two reasons for the above:

1) We are seeing the incompatibility of distant immigrants, both culturally and genetically, and their effects on Europe. We do not need to beat this dead horse any longer. Some things may work, others do not. And with the case of distant immigration, as a whole, it does NOT.

2) As I've repeatedly stated, all other countries that send off wave upon wave of unwanted immigrants do NOT reciprocate in taking anyone "foreign" in. And it does not have to do with financial reasons, it has to do with genetic reasons as places like India, China, Japan, and Israel all want ONLY their respective people in their countries. This double standard alone is enough to halt immigration and repatriate most of them. Whites and Europe are somehow obliged to take in everyone from the planet. This makes absolutely no sense.

At 11/28/2005 06:12:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

To Ethnocentrist: “As I've repeatedly stated”. Quite. But that doesn’t establish it as fact. And as for countries sending off wave upon wave, I think that is stretching credibility.

Please will you provide source links for your claims on India, China and Japan. Thanks.

At 11/29/2005 01:21:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Are you too lazy to look it up yourself?

Equally all-American is Wu’s idea that the U.S. should have open immigration with no national origin restrictions. No country in Asia allows it. In Alien Nation, Peter Brimelow reported the responses of the Chinese, Taiwanese, Indian, and Filipino embassies, when asked if an American could immigrate to their country:

China: “China does not accept any immigrants. We have a large enough population.”

Taiwan: You need Taiwanese relatives by blood or marriage.

India: “Are you of Indian origin?”

By Indian origin, the Indians mean Indian descent - an outright racial classification.

Every country in Asia has policies like that. If America were to adopt Asian-style immigration policies, perhaps as a result of the influence of Asian-American public intellectuals, I don’t think the Americanized Professor Wu would appreciate it.

In recognition, the government is thinking of loosening its restrictive immigration policy.

But any changes may come as a shock to a nation where registered foreigners make up just over 1% of its population.

"Registered foreigners" means workers.

Traditional Japan’s immigration policy was not willing to allow permanent residence for
resident aliens. In the case of a spouse or child of Japanese or a permanent resident, a 3-
year residential term was required. Otherwise, a 20-year continuous residential term was
necessary to be allowed a permanent residence permit.

c) Citizenship
It is reported that more than 330,000 individuals were naturalized in Japan from 1945 to
2000. Most of them are Koreans and Chinese as shown in table 4.

This isn't brain surgery NOR a secret in anyway for you to want to give it the "fine tooth comb" treatment.

At 11/29/2005 01:30:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

I really hate the way these links drop off the page like that! Yuk. ethnocentrist, can you put a break in that very long link (the ip.kyusan one) that makes me break out in spots? I know it's pedantic but I hate it.

At 11/29/2005 01:34:00 AM, Blogger deviousdiva said...

ethnocentrist wrote "Are you too lazy to look it up yourself?"
I know it wasn't directed at me but I think it depends where you look things up doesn't it? It's not laziness. It's the fact that there is so much conflicting information out there. I would probably never come across links that you post because my searches are different to yours?


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