STILL UNPOPULAR
This is my 100th post. Happy blogging celebration to me. According to the new European Social Survey, Greece is the least welcoming country in Europe as far as foreigners are concerned. We already knew that though, didn't we? When asked if foreigners make the country worse, 64% said they did. Double the average. When asked whether migrants should be allowed to settle here, 27% said none. Double the average. When asked whether foreigners from poor countries should be allowed to come and live here, eight out of ten said no. Double the average. 60% of europeans said that immigrants were good for the economy. Almost 60% (57%) of Greeks said they were not. This is not a recent change of heart. The last European Social survey in 2002 was pretty much the same. So, not much of that famous greek φιλοξενία (hospitality) if you are foreign and actually want to live here. Yes, I know; "if you don't like it go home", "you know where the airport is" etc. (just thought I would save you the trouble of writing it) Greece is relatively new to multiculturalism and has not had decades of discussion and education on the issues. Many people are starting to have these debates which is positive to see. Unfortunately, for the foreigners here now, the majority opinion seems to be against them. I just hope our efforts will make things better for our children. By the way, November 16th is International Day for Tolerance
Technorati Tags: Greece, immigration, multicultural, tolerance
posted by deviousdiva @ 11/11/2005 04:45:00 PM
87 comments
Hi mike, thank yu for your comments as always. You wrote:
"However, perhaps it raises the question: should the government listen to the people and restrict immigration, or should it do the ‘right’ thing (by recent multi-cultural, politically correct thinking)?"
It's one thing to tighten immigration laws and each country has to take it's own measures as it see fit ( and in accordance to international laws) However, what about the people who are already here? Some 10% of the population. Most of those are here legally and trying to make decent lives for themselves and their families.
In my personal opinion, problems arise in the immigrant populations when they have been marginalised, discriminated against and denied access to basic human rights. I will be accused of being a loony lefty liberal (saving people's time again) but that is what I think. I was talking with a friend the other day who, I think, put it really well. "How long do you beat the dog before it turns rounds and bites your ass?"
Unless we are going to have mass repatriations, deportations etc, Europe must face the fact that it is multicultural and that it has a responsibilty to provide equal rights to ALL it's citizens. I personally do not think it is right that when Europe needs immigrants, for work or for the economy, everything is hunky dory. But when things get rough, we say let's blame the foreigners. It's easier for some people to think like that. Blame all your ills on someone else (usually someone with less power than you).
Deep breath. I'll finish there. I've got to get on with that other thing... real life!
Oh btw Mike I don't mind at all if you link to this post. Quite the opposite, I am honoured. Thanks
I lived in Northern Greece for 5 and a half years... here's a quick insight into a few of my experiences:
- On more than one occassion I have seen Greek people demand a seat on the bus that was taken by a foreigner (most of the time black people)
- I was told by an employee at the local tax office that I shouldn't be given a job because jobs in greece are for greek people
- Street selling is very common in Greece; especially the selling of CDs and DVDs. 99% of them are from Africa and are given 0% respect.
- There are quite a few Albanians living in Greece. Some of them (not all!) are highly motivated people, especially the kids who are keen to become educated. Most foreign school top achievers are rarely recognized.
I could go on...
Well, one thing about the Greeks, at least they are honest. I've always doubted such opinion polls in the past because I think some people (in America at least) give the polite opinions, and not their real ones. Immigrant loathing (at least in my little corner of America) seemed pretty high when I lived there.
This may be how Greeks feel, but how often do they act on it? My block here in Thessaloniki seems to have a few immigrants and for the most part people here seem to be friendly towards them. Of course, I'm not following them on a day to day basis to see how they are being treated, but I don't get a general sense of rampant racism against immigrants here. As long as the environment stays pleasant, I suppose it doesn't matter how people *really* feel. Obviously - you've seen our "discussions" with Ethno and others like him, we won't be changing their minds any more than they will change ours.
Throw whatever "isms" at me that you like, but I think it is a really sad day when people of the world can't learn to live together and befriend one another. And I don't just mean from the "white" point of view - there are plenty of "nationalist" Muslims and people from other countries who will never get along with the rest of the world, only "their" kind. It is that attitude that makes me think that ultimately, whatever the point of life on this earth is, whether it comes from a higher authority or not, it means game over, we lose.
I mean really, how hard is it for human beings to get along? To respect one another? And if someone throws the religious crap in my face I am going to eat puppies. There is no real reason Muslims, Christians and Jews can't get along. Each of those religions comes from the same damn base.
Hi there Mel. Always welcome, your comments and input.
Well, I think it goes without saying (so maybe I shouldn't say it?) that I think people can and do get along (as you read in "my neighbourhood story") The point is when it becomes "them" and "us", we have problems. There are nationalists on all sides (greek, muslim, black, white, bla bla)but the vast majority of us are not nationalists. When it comes to whether Greeks are more honest? Hmm I don't know. If this is how everyone really feels but are not honest enough to say it, that seems more depressing, to me.
I really think that most people do not act on their prejudices. But if the current trend towards people like ethnocentrist prevail, we don't really know how poeple will respond. My fear is that they will swing towards nationalism because it is convenient, easier and explains their problems in "black and white"
I agree, it is not that hard for people to get along. We do it all the time without turning a hair. What gets confusing is when people throw crap in our faces about difference. About them and us, about better and worse, about superior and less.
Sorry mel, can't write anymore right now. Long week. I'm knackered. Goodnight for now.
I don't know. Overall if you look at the world right now, it seems that more people are racist, anti-immigration, etc. , certainly more than what is considered average via polls. But maybe that is just me being depressed about the state of the world right now.
It just seems that for every one thing the "liberal Marxists" say there is some reason we are wrong and look at this and this and this. France didn't help. And I think as time goes on, the "us and them" attitude will just keep expanding, from what is is now to every little damned thing. It isn't even black and white anymore, or Christian and Muslim, or whatever. It is a divide between those that have and those that don't have. Between those who think one way and those who think another, hell, there may be prejudices against right handed people and southpaws for all I know. All I can see is that the lines are getting broader and more divisive. And then what will have left? Is this *really* our lot? Or will this eradicate us like the dinosaurs?
Sure, I see how that if people think this way, things could get worse. But I am all out of ways to fix it. I don't see changing anyone minds. Not until every immigrant does right by the law and doesn't prove the other side right by breaking the law, riotous violence, or any number of things that happen. And those things aren't going to stop either. Because noone can think about this on a human level, they have to see the issues as racial, or economic, or whatever they are. They can't see it as simply human nature. Some human beings do these things. Others don't. Obviously, not ALL crimes are committed by immigrants, blacks, Muslims, etc. But if ONE crime is, or two, or a few dozen, that is all people will see. Not that it is just some fucked up human beings committing crimes.
It is a subject that really frustrates me, because the "right" or the "nationalists" or the "supremacists" or whatever you want to call them will never see past what they already see. And I will never break down and say "ok, fuck immigrants, fuck everyone else but me and my white heritage". People are people. I highly doubt the world would be a better place if everyone was white. Or if no one emigrated. Or whatever.
Sorry for the language, but it just fits into my frustration with this issue.
Jesus Christ! This isn't a blog, but a goddamn propaganda site. I guess Diva found this bit of tripe more fitting to blog on than THIS from the extreme leftist garbage in Greece's midst. There is a reason for the perceived rise in "racism" or "xenophobia" that some commenters here state. The reason is that it is a natural and instinctive phenomenon to want to be with others of like kind. This has been memed to be "racist" and "intolerant" in our day and age. The more influx of different people, the more outcry you will see. Ideology and legislation cannot temper instinct no matter what you call it.
It's one thing for a nation and a people to accept and be tolerant of a small group of immigrants that are forced to eventually assimilate and a totally different concept where you have a free for all migration of peoples who are so different and so many and so intolerant of native cultures. The latter is happening right now in all western worlds. You are seeing the effects of this "enlightened and tolerant" view of the western leftist. Thank God for the Muslim who has been eager to show the world his intolerant face and hopefully awaken the slumbering masses to this catastrophe that will befall us. The numbers are still small enough to prevent decade long warring. And make no mistake, warring WILL happen and it will NOT be initiated by the "lunatic right" either.
To anonymous above: You say those things as if they are bad. You must expect complete genuflection from Greeks towards their "guests".
To Nationless and Borderless Scarfi: LOL Grow up, will you! You make less sense than my 6 year old nephew and my 1 year old nieces. Ethnocentrism a dead end? We can't stop immigration? Deterrents are no longer working? You're one screwed up extreme leftist. First off, if the Establishment wanted immigration stopped, it would be stopped today, immediately. The New World Order wants immigration and chaos and that is why it is occuring AGAINST the will of the people. Don't worry Scarfi, we'll let you leave and join your "huddled masses" on their way back home. Maybe you can teach them the way of the leftist and his colorless, raceless, borderless ideals. I'm sure they'll just lap it up. But don't forget to bring your "bat"...just in case they don't take too kindly to crazy talk.
I did read about the "anarchist" response to the riots in Paris, ethnocentrist, but whatever their agenda might be it is not mine. I wrote about this kind of thing when the youth took to the streets to protest the hatewave gathering here at
PROTEST HIJACKED. I cannot blog on everything that might be of interest to me. I have to be selective because I don't have unlimited time. As I have pointed out many many times, my main reason for blogging is to have a dialogue about human rights issues. I certainly do not blog about subjects to please you. If you don't like my choice of what I post, don't respond. It is not obligatory.
As to what you have written. We will have to agree to disagree. The way you see the world is not the way I see it. We cannot see eye to eye because of how we interpret the same situations. I see the threat to humanity is from people like you. You see it from people like me. How can we talk when we do not speak the same language?
Once again, resorting to insulting people on my blog does not help your argument at all.
Hi Mike,
Ted's site is where I found the news24.com article.
Mike, when you have Canada saying that they "need" more immigrants and are increasing their numbers from a little over 200,000 per year to over 350,000 per year and want to hurriedly dispense the 700,000 waiting to immigrate in their queue, then it is a free for all.
When you have the US taking in ~1 million legal immigrants per year and over 1 million ILLEGALS from Mexico per year while the populace is quite angry at the state of affairs and wants immigration stopped, it is a free for all.
When you have Europe maintaining that there is this drastic need for immigrants to do the work the natives won't do, despite calls of just the opposite from the populace as well as rising unemployment in many European nations, then it is a free for all.
There is no secret that there has been a significant calculation by the Establishment to allow all sorts of people into western nations against the will of the people and despite the absence of need.
As for the two articles you linked, two things come to mind. "Day late and dollar short" and sycophant Blairite.
Diva,
I do not view people like you as a threat to humanity. I view MILLIONS of people like you who have their own separate interests from their host countries that have no intention of assimilation as a threat to humanity.
Scarfi,
Wow. Thanks for that real gem. The inbreeding strawman. Who would have thought YOU would bring that up? As to the statement of mine that you quoted, it is fact. You should widen your reading material outside the usual "bleedingheartleftistbullshit.com" sites you frequent.
eff wrote "leftist leaning persons were guilty of irrationality, as I see it, far more often than those on the right"
hmm depends on which side your on doesn't it? i see multitudes on the irrational "right". Starting with your very own president. The left does not own the copyright on loony as far as I can see.
scarfalonius,
consider yourself well and truly sound-effected. Trumpets, bells, screams and moans, and a lone violin (obviously played by a short, six fingered, left-handed amish pennsylvanian)
Mike
I'm glad you made that point about posting on appropriate blogs. If you want to write about a particular news item or issue, there are thousands of blogs to choose from. I am not sure why ethnocentrist takes such offence to my webblog. I guess he just enjoys the argument.
ethnocentrist wrote "I view MILLIONS of people like you who have their own separate interests from their host countries that have no intention of assimilation as a threat to humanity."
In what way do you consider that I am not assimilated? And what are my interests that are separate from the country I live in. That I care about human rights?
It seems, yet again, we are not on the same page.
scarfalonius,
and I thought it was just your quirky sense of humour not bleedingheartleftistbullshit.com! Great name for a new site though.
How about a post on the Paris riots? Although I realise it is a bit early for that, I mean it's only what, the third week now, that the riots are raging. Early days still, obviously...
Sorry I don't understand why people keep asking for me to post about the Paris riots? I have posted elsewhere. If anyone wants to read about the riots and post comments there are hundreds of blogs out there writing about them. I choose what material I post and I choose what not to blog about. If I wanted to write about the riots, I would have. Maybe, I misread what you meant, Jason, but this came across as very sarcastic? Any reason? Perhaps you and the other commenters who have requested such a post, when obviously I have chosen not to, ( I deleted several quite nasty ones) could please explain why. That way, I don't have to second guess you all.
Yea, what is it with people suggesting blog topics? I'll blog about what I bloody well want to. And just because everyone in the blogosphere is blogging about something doesn't meant that everyone should.
Troll...it's whats for dinner.
hi it is nice to find you... for me the world is my country... ;)
Diva asks:
In what way do you consider that I am not assimilated? And what are my interests that are separate from the country I live in. That I care about human rights?
Well, let's take a look at your Blog title first..."This is NOT my Country". You are clearly showing to the blog world that you do not identify with Greece and you do not view it as your home. It also indicates that, despite being there over 10 years, you feel alienated because most people assimilate after several years to their new homes.
Secondly, you constantly blog about all sorts of real and perceived deficiencies about the country. Constantly pointing out this or that "human right" violation or simply what you do not like. Constantly take issue of why things are wrong with the place. If we take two other expats as examples, namely Melusina and SeaWitch, they blog about good AND bad things. They do not only focus on negatives which you do. They both have assimilated to varying degrees and enjoy the country, yet see the faults of it as well which is their right to do. You not only focus on ONLY the negative, but also attempt to twist the actual facts as negatively as possible. Case in point, this bullshit topic.
Thirdly, the reason I have prodded you into blogging about other current affairs is your apparent interest in human rights. Not that I want to hear your view per se, but more importantly to see how you will treat these other matters. The human rights violations that are happening in France while you ignore them, alone makes you a hypocrite about such matters. Granted, this is not happening in Greece, though it very well could be and might be in the future. By blogging about it and bringing it to light, you would be doing a service that you so want to do. We have a catastrophe in the making in Europe and you do not see fit to write about it, but rather a more important issue is how "unwelcoming" Greece is perceived. This to me, shows your not so subtle axe to grind against Greece and your total lack of "assimilation".
These are my reasons for "picking" on you, which is not picking at all, but more to do with a clear realization that you have issues with the place. Some may be legitimate and others wholeheartedly NOT.
Mike,
You started off strongish, then quickly petered out. Pity. The "is Canada in Europe" and "troll" comments were the real icing, I must say. The level of thought there was "astounding". Oh yes, the "keep on going, girl" comment was priceless. LOL Let me just say it was hilarious on many different planes.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz....
I'm sorry I don't live in your fantasy land, Scarfi. When the day arrives that you can actually prove what I say is incorrect, instead of your mewling pleas, then you will remain to be the butt of all jokes. ;)
Don't you have to get ready for some "Oh what horrors these po' Africans must be dealing with to throw themselves at wired fences" protest or something useful like that? Don't forget your "bleeding heart liberal", standard issue bat...LOL
"Angry White Male" - Are those the new liberal buzz words for people who voice concerns with provable facts that are supported by current events?
Hi, Devious Diva.
Geesh, I hardly know where to start in response to some of these posts. But I did want to tell you that I appreciate what you are doing with this blog.
I'm an American in Greece and I'm here because I am married to a Greek. Having just labeled myself as an American let me say that I really do prefer to think of myself as a "citizen of the world" though often that world scares and disappoints, as does "my country".
I have observed first hand attitudes towards immigrants, and Americans too for that matter. Rather disturbing to have anti-American demonstrations march past my balcony. But except for said demonstrations these are mostly subtle. Guess it is lucky for me that my Greek is still pretty poor (I am trying to learn though). I might hold a different opinion if I understood more Greek.
And I have observed that Greeks are not as hospitable as they like to claim. I find most pretty unfriendly compared to where I come from. Would it kill the Greek people to smile more?
Anyway, thanks again for the great job that you are doing here. What a difficult task to undertake. My deepest respect.
Welcome street spirt and delawaredeb, and thank you for your kind words. I hope you will keep coming back and contributing.
To the anonymous who posted the anti-semitic paranoid conspiracy theory comment, consider this your first warning. I am no longer willing to host extreme racist,anti-semitic,homophobic or misogynist comments on my blog. I am only leaving this up because I think it shows what kind of a person you are. It is unfortunate that you (as is often the way) have chosen to post anonymously as I have no way of knowing if the next vile diatribe is from you or someone else. I will just delete the next one.
Wow, I am amazed. Eric Cartman is a REAL person, not just a cartoon character on South Park! And he is posting anonymously here on DD's blog! Too bad he sounds like a maniac that makes no sense.
Hiya delawaredeb, I'm an American married to a Greek living in Greece too. I know exactly how you feel.
As far as ethno's reply to DD, well, I guess I can see his point, but I think we can't judge her based solely on what she chooses to blog about and what title she chooses for her blog. She is blogging to point out these types of issues in Greece, and while they are bad things, she HAS posted about good things on a couple of occasions. But again, that isn't the point of her blog. As she has stated before, the title of her blog comes from a song, and I think it works well for this particular type of blog. She has been in Greece for 10 years, and while she may not entirely like it, to me it sounds like she has integrated pretty well.
As to this particular post, well, how can we argue about it? This is what some Greeks feel. I'm curious as to how many Greeks they included in the survey, what age groups, and from what areas. Despite this data, I do feel that Greeks are tolerant, on some level, of immigrants.
No, I don't believe in mass immigration anywhere. Illegal immigration is a problem. But I don't see legal immigration as an issue. I just don't. Name all the upheavals and race riots and whatever you want, but normal, start-live-over-in-a-new-country immigration doesn't seem bad to me. Sure, I'd rather see fixes for the problems in these countries that people have to emigrate from, but for now, there are people who need a new chance at life.
Greece seems to get more than a lion's share of illegal immigrants, and that might be what people are opposed to in the polling data. Who knows.
I am surprised that ethnocentrist can presume to know wether I am intergrated or not when he doesn't know me. He is somewhat blinded by what he thinks he knows about me. Many of us have blogs (still bites me that he doesn't have one where I can visit him) but how many of us have to defend what we blog about, what we don't blog about, the title of the goddam blog itself. I feel like I spend most the time defending myself instead of debating the issues.
I had just written a positive veiw of the tolerant, friendly Greeks in my neighbourhood when this survey was reported in the Athens News. I do say at the beginning of the post that the data is "According to the new European Social Survey" I must admit I was shocked by the numbers (and I don't know how accurate they are). What struck me most, and why I kept repeating it, was that whatever the true numbers are, Greeks were double the european average on most of the issues to do with immigration. (ie against)
I end by saying Greece is relatively new to multiculturalism (the modern reality) and the discussions and debates are only beginning to happen recently. It does take time and effort. I just feel that the rabid anti-immigration stance is simply negetive and is leading us the wrong way. As many people have said immigration is not going away. We have to deal with it. How is up to each country to decide. If Greece passes laws to send me (an EU citizen I state again) packing, then I will be obliged to go. Until then I am free to be here, legally and freely, to work, to pay taxes, to send my kid to school, to get healthcare, to seek legal protection and/or anything else an EU citizen is entitled to. And blog about whatever the hell I feel like. Good, bad, or mad as a bus.
Many of the posts from Greek nationalists are filled with denial of the situation in Greece in terms of the economic necessity of immigrants from poorer countries and oppression.
THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATIONALISM AND PATRIOTISM. Be patriotic; be proud of your country. Don't limit the rights of "others;" don't dehumanize "the other." Be proud of your history, but recognize that your country didn't CREATE WESTERNISM. The ancient Greeks are ancient history and not that important to the modern world; sorry, it's a fact despite at least one nationalist's view.
I can't tell if people want you to say "this is my country" or "this isn't my country." Do they want foreigners to assimilate or just to leave? My guess is your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. And I wonder...who are these "most people" who assimilate in a few years? Are they white? Do they speak perfect Greek? Do they have Greek ancestory and read the boring writing of ancient Greeks?
It seems like the argument of being anti-globalization is misplaced. The diaspora of people started with imperialism. So blame the imperialists, not those displaced by choice or force.
*Where do you find the time to respond and read all these comments.
Diva,
You say that I do not know you or if truly you are assimilated. To that I say, your words do betray you then. Either you are assimilated, yet have hidden anger towards the country, or are assimilated and only write negatively about Greece which seems a bit odd, or are not assimilated and resentful. Most people cannot hide themselves so well on these blogs and the ones that do, i.e. have one or more believable personalities from their "real life"one that they never waver from are sociopathic. You may be many things, though sociopathic is not one of them, for sure. I think you are angry at what you see as "unfairness" and you write about it. Though your anger has clouded your objectivity for the place you live in and you cannot see the good, nor even have the inclination to write about something good. I've read enough of your postings and comments to know that you write what you feel. If you want to deny this, then that is your choice and in reality, I am not 100% sure if what I say is correct, though I am fairly confident. But in the end, it really doesn't matter to me. What matters is what YOU really feel and how you live outside these blogs. If always miserable and looking at things negatively, then obviously that isn't good, is it? Only you know the truth regarding this.
Now, I do not know how you are interpreting my words as you read them, though I am not being dishonest, threatening, nor belittling when I write them, just so there isn't ANY misunderstanding. That isn't the case when I respond to "ourword visitor" shortly.
Many of the posts from Greek nationalists are filled with denial of the situation in Greece in terms of the economic necessity of immigrants from poorer countries and oppression.
This is ignorant, banal, and fraught with unoriginal, indoctrinated, leftist babblings. One needs to educate themselves with economic issues first, then immigration issues second, THEN politically motived mass migratory decisions third before one even thinks of spouting untenable dogma in MY presence. The west does NOT need immigration for mass immigration is a net negative in western welfare states. This has been looked at by economists from Harvard. George Borjas being only one. It is a negative economically, culturally, and has negative impacts on native birthrates. Simple as that.
As to "oppression", I presume you mean oppression of the immigrants by their own governments and not by their western hosts. This again is another impotent plea for "humanitarianism". It's not only stupid, but also illogical and naive. This incessant pleading of allowing wave after wave of poor, uneducated, culturally and genetically distant immigrants into the west to "help" them, which inturn destroys us is akin to trying to save a drowing person where the rescuer is a poor swimmer and both end up drowning. And it's not as if that scenario has never happened and we haven't heard it many times. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Be patriotic; be proud of your country. Don't limit the rights of "others;" don't dehumanize "the other." Be proud of your history, but recognize that your country didn't CREATE WESTERNISM. The ancient Greeks are ancient history and not that important to the modern world; sorry, it's a fact despite at least one nationalist's view.
Even more ignorant than the first statement. No one is "dehumanizing" when one does NOT want mass immigration or any immigration for that matter. The connection is tenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. We, the west, are not a collective "Jesus" that we have die in order to save the poor masses. We have no obligation for that whatsoever. If we decide to help, it is out of choice and not out of obligation or guilt.
What does "creating westernism" have to do with anything? Though Greece did contribute more than its fair share, without a doubt, though what if we didn't? So? Should the countries that didn't create the airplane, automobile, telephone, farming, etc. NOT be allowed to use them? What about India, China, Japan, Israel, the Middle East, and most sub-Saharan African nations? They didn't create westernism, yet they do not allow immigration into their countries. Why are we forced to?
As to the "ancient Greeks are ancient history and are not that important" statement. This is beyond moronic. Ummm, math, science, medicine, philosophy, logic (which you seem to have quite of dearth of) are all used today more than in the ancient world, you idiot. Tell me where we would be without those contributions?
However, the final point that is irrefutable is SO WHAT? Even if your tripe was 100% correct instead of 100% wrong, why on earth should we move towards national suicide? Why should we follow the paths of the US, Britain, Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Belgium, Germany, and France? Any reason aside from pleading to the God of Humanitarianism? LOL
Hospitality is dependent on one's hosting ability.
Nothing had been done throughout the last 25years for managing a possible immigration towards Greece!!!!! Total lack of immigration provision/providence.
Large groups migrated uncontrollably (11% of the population already!!)
What was the result?
Xenophobia, economic instability, racist incidents. Local societies currently being at a deadend.
Italy and Holland have set a maximum potential percentage for immigrants as a part of their societies. 3% maximum I think it is. Hellenic economy is much weaker. Do you think it could handle the situation?
I think the society generally responded very well (please have a look at the recent comments of politics concerning a similar situation to the French one). There were some unfortunate excemptions as well, like everywhere else.
We should not blame residents. We should blame real responsible people.
Hello again uneducated, I agree with you. Governments should have behaved responsibly from the beginning but they didn't. So now what? Now they must deal with the years of malaise and "burying their heads" and deal with the situation. Wouldn't it be better to have an immigrant population that is involved, able to use the skills they have and contributing than one that is marginalised, ignored and blamed for all societies wrongs?
ethnocentrist. You angrily came back at people when they attempted to judge you by what you have written here. I would suggest you don't try and analyse me (or anyone else) in the same way. None of us know each other personally and, as always, we might be surprised by what we found if we did. Leave your mind open about me and others. In that way we can allow better discussion. You (and others) often write things that make me angry and I think that's what comes through for you when I write back to you. My actual posts on this blog are, for the most part, articles from various sources, collected in one place, to give a general idea of the situation here in Greece for not only immigrants but for other citizens who find themseves discriminated against or marginalised. Most of the time, my reponses to what people have written, although they make me angry, are polite. I have never resorted to insults or name calling. How I interpret your words (or anyone elses) is complicated. How we interpret what people write is surely dependant on our experiences and where our beliefs are? If people constantly refered to you as "them" or as savages or barbarians or huddled masses or as less than them, how would you interpret that? This is how I read you (and the others who have written such things).
To "scruffy american", welcome. You say people seem flustered by your statement. Has anyone actually responded to what you say? If so, what do they say?
To Ourword visitor, thank you for your response. I am not sure who the "most people" who have assimilated are.When I look around I see that most foreigners here are trying to assimilate and are working hard to make better lives for themselves and their families. I think some people, who post negative responses here, see the opposite.
Personally, I feel I am very well assimilated in my life here (contrary to what people say) Yes, I struggle with the language, I've admitted that, but I am improving without the aid of classes or courses (no spare cash for them). I feel very much part of this community despite difficulties with language. I belong to the school parent's association where I meet many parents who are trying to improve things for all children at the school. Trying to right some of the shortcomings in the state education system. There are some very basic issues here like providing toilet paper and soap in the childrens washrooms, upgrading the dangerous playground (ongoing), getting a table and chairs for the children to eat there dinner at instead of having to sit outside in the mud. These are things we are having to pay for because our borough does not provide them in our school (which is attended mostly by greek children by the way). I am certainly not alone when I attend these meetings in feeling that the government is failing Greece and it's citizens, especially the most vulnerable ones. Ok, this has become off the topic now. But I think it says a little bit more about where I stand? Despite what people say, I am not anti-greece, just critical of what are failures of the system and government. If I was blogging about my life here my webblog would be very different to the one here.
Diva,
I think we are getting/gotten off topic here. Some of the things you say are true and some are not, though that is how they are perceived through your eyes. I think I'll just leave it at that because it is difficult to get absolute clarity on fuzzy and probably unimportant ideas through the net without spending a huge amount of time writing.
However one point I wanted to be clear on is the "interpretation" of my writing. I know that what I write is abrasive and hurtful, especially from your point of view. What I was trying to clarify with that last sentence at the end of my last comment to you was that I was not being sarcastic or belittling and I did not want you to read it that way. The times I am inconsiderate should be clear and the times that I am civil hopefully are as well. That's all that I was trying to say.
To Ethnocentrist: I enjoyed your post. I agree that Greeks did a lot years ago, but what I always tell Greeks I meet is this. Fine, your anscestors (if they are truly ancestors), did all these great things, but what have you done lately? Most don't have an answer. It's shameful that the Greeks of old did all these wonderful things, but the only things the modern greeks can do is look pretty and gossip in Kolonaki. The smart, truly educated greeks exit abroad to success, and not drown themselves in this sinkhole. Sorry, but it's true. I'm only repeating what I hear from so many Greek-American successful businessmen in the states. Once again, I hope you won't be too harsh on me with the response, but I will enjoy your comments no less. Peace, SCRUFFY AMERICAN
Scruffy American, I always liked that saying "The one eyed man is the king in the village of the blind". I think being fluent in Greek is a very key factor in how people are percieved. I am far from fluent. Not talented in the language department and I find Greek excessively difficult. I learned French and spanish much easier. It really is a shame that there are no programmes here to teach Greek. If you are rich, and I mean rich (classes are expensive) there are dozens of places to go and learn. Our budget just does not stretch to them. I am not asking for handouts here, in case some people get the wrong impression. I just think there should be language classes/programmes that were reasonably priced, that the average person could afford. That would be a good way of helping people to assimilate which is what most people on both sides want. My "supermarket" Greek, as I call it, doesn't suffice. I would like to become as articulate in Greek as I feel I am in English. For that I need help. Just the other day, I met an Iraqi biology teacher who overheard me talking to my kid in English and was so happy to be able to talk to someone. He doesn't know any Greek people so cannot learn the language from them. How can he learn and then perhaps, get a job that matches his skills/education? He felt he was doomed to work as a casual/low paid work from now on. Despite that he was not bitter or angry. Just grateful not to be living in Iraq. I don't know how long those feelings last though.
Hi Diva,
From Scruffy American:
Actually some part of the Greek Government (not sure which one) actually does provide free Greek lessons to foreigners. I found this on the Athens News about 4 months ago and I was thinking of doing it but it was too far from my house. Not sure if they still have them, but you never know.
But, here's the info in case you want to post as a Blog one day:
FREE GREEK LESSONS:
Learn greek for free: Tel: 210-666-4788 or 210-666-4789
Point of Contact: Ms Antonopoulo
NOTES: Twice a week 3 Hours a week (TUE and ???) (6pm - 9pm)
Directions: (To Register)
- Bus 324 (from Aghia Paraskevi Area) (towards Pallini)
- Get off at stop (Ergatikes Polykatikies)
- The place to register is at: KEE (Leondariou # 4)
Directions (For Class)
- Bus 308 (Towards Peania)
- Classes held at Kendriki Plateia Peania
Cheers,
Scruffy American
Thanks for the information. I will try and find out more before I make a post about it.
According to the new European Social Survey, Greece is the least welcoming country in Europe as far as foreigners are concerned.
No offense but this is a shallow and meaningless statement, and for anyone who knows Greece or general immigration issues in the EU, utterly out of context.
At the time that Greece's borders were settled between the Balkan Wars and the post World War one period, it was the positon of the overseaing powers, US and the UK, that mono-ethcic states in the Balkans was the key to stability, and they promoted massive population exchanges to achieve this.
Today Greece has the longest border of any EU country. On top of that it borders more poor non-EU countries than any EU country.
It has gone from having barely any immigrants, indeed being a next exporter to having one the largest immigrant populations, a phenomena tha has occured in just a decade. this means that developing a legal and cultural system to deal with immigration is a bit premature (consider how the US has swung vastly on immigrtion policy and views over the last hunderd years)
Greece has accepted 10% immigrants. Spain and Italy have about half that number. By definition Greece is among the MOST welcoming countries in the EU.
In case you missed it, when Albania fell apart the Italians were shooting at Albanian refugees on boats, and then keeping them by the thousands in stadiums that make the squalor of the New Orleans stadium look tame.
As far as race is concerned, my guess is you have never considered the immigration in the US. Why is it that Haitan refugges on boats are turned back adn others less dark let in?
Now they must deal with the years of malaise and "burying their heads" and deal with the situation.
"years? are you kidding? It is ten years. that is a very short time. For France it has been 50 since the great waves of post colonial immigrants and they still are cacking it up! In the US we have open borders on one hand and fingerprint Europeans entering!
"malaise"? come on. the Balkans EXPLODED with change. the borders defined by the US as a line in te sand during the cold war. Over and over it was reinforced to Greece that the nations to the north were a threat. And then the borders opened, everyone on the otherside was poor, and many were escaping politcal violence. Greece's repsonse was to accept more Blaknan politcal and economic refugees per capita than ANY nation in the EU.
Are their problems? Yes. But the situation with immigration in Greece is brand new. For 100 years the only imigration was co-ethnics, almost soley out of European and US policy creating post-Ottoman ethnic states except for that Greece was a net exporter of immigrants.
When I go to Greece no one demands my fingerprint and I need no visa, yet if a Greek friend wants to come visit me they have to get a visa and they have to be biometricized.
DL
TO DL from SCRUFFY AMERICAN:
The Greek government (ND) seems to want to help immigrants, and even PASOK wants to allow immigrants to vote here (from what I read). However, the vast majority of Greeks still don't like or want foreigners in their country. You can bring up all the comparisons to AMERICA and our immigrant history, but remember this is the year 2005, and not 1905. Further, Greeks pride themselves on being so sophisticated politically, socially etc, so using the excuse that they are not use to immigrants is not flying from where I sit. It's as they say in Greece (Thikeelogias--excuses). Call a spade a spade. Greeks for the most parts are racist. I see it on a daily basis. Maybe you don't live here, or if you do, you must be one of the "beautiful people" I see sipping coffee in Kolonaki and thus immune.
Scruffy American
To Scruffy American,
You state...
Fine, your anscestors (if they are truly ancestors), did all these great things, but what have you done lately? Most don't have an answer. It's shameful that the Greeks of old did all these wonderful things, but the only things the modern greeks can do is look pretty and gossip in Kolonaki. The smart, truly educated greeks exit abroad to success, and not drown themselves in this sinkhole. Sorry, but it's true. I'm only repeating what I hear from so many Greek-American successful businessmen in the states.
I cannot argue with this. It is true for the most part. It is true that Greek society has been on a steady decline for some time and that it has only picked up speed the last couple or three decades. It is disgusting and disgraceful.
I surmise there are many reasons for this depravity and sloth that most Greeks seem to be mired in. As you rightfully state, the contributions of the ancients were great and abundant. Yet, pitifully little since though that is changing albeit slowly. Some significant advancements in the research fields of medicine are coming out of the Hippocration and Onassis centers. They are viewed as premier places of medicine and not only in Greece. This is a good start for the country. Hopefully this will continue and expand to other disciplines as well.
What is one to expect when a people have been essentially occupied and mixed to varying degrees for 2000 years? When they have been influenced, partially assimilated, and forced to accept different cultures and races of people? Prior to the birth of Christ to the end of the Ottoman occupation, that has been Greece's lot in history. As much as Greeks like to pretend they are pure, and we still see some purity amongst natives around the country, the reality is that there has been unfortunate admixture into Greek blood. Of greatest consequence has been the Turk and his repugnant genes that have infiltrated Greece when he viciously occupied for 400 years. To me, this is a clear indication that genes make the people and the culture. This to me this hypothesis has been proven and continues to be reinforced with each passing day and with each new genetic discovery. We had an elite civilation that has been ravaged by "barbarians" for 20 centuries and you want to know "what have Greeks done for us lately"? LOL Come on Scruffy. That's a bit ridiculous, don't you think? Are the modern Egyptians the same people of Ancient Egypt? Not in the least and the answer is quite clear.
Another reason for Greek unambitiousness is this steady move leftward since the second world war. With liberalism, comes excessive individualism, extreme feminism, and self gratification ideology. Greeks just managed to lap this bilge up and then run with it more than most other European countries aside from the Swedes and Dutch. In a cursory nutshell, that has been the cause of the decline in Greek culture.
You also state to DL, the other anonymous poster...
Call a spade a spade. Greeks for the most parts are racist.
Yeah, so what? So are the rest of the people of the world and no one is complaining about them. We have East Asians of all variations, South Asians, Arabs, Muslims, Africans, Blacks, Hispanics, Jews etc that are the most racist people on the planet and we focus on the stupid whites. As I mentioned above, it is natural and instinctive to be around others of like kind. It is hard wired into us. It is only due to the feculant liberal that THAT is somehow bad in society now. Let me tell you it is not. Let me tell you also that other cultures and races practice nepotism and racism while we altruistically are "above that" to our detriment.
But the bottom line is this, no matter how much admixture there has been in Greece, no matter how lazy Greeks have become, no matter how "racist" they are. Those are inadequate and unacceptable reasons to flood the country with all sorts of distant peoples and to FURTHER fuck the people up. Greeks have still managed to BE Greek despite all this. Further immigration with all sorts will deplete them of that as well. Then we'll have some other smart ass in 200 years saying "why don't you Greeks act Greek?" You and I will know the answer to that, won't we?
Hi, Scruffy American.
I envy you your fluency in Greek. I struggle. Especially because my husband doesn't speak Greek with me and I'm stuck at home most of the time with small children. And thanks for posting info for DD re: Greek classes. I wanted to tell her that free ones exist but didn't have any local info for her. (I'm not in Athens.)
DD-
I have taken free lessons through two different organizations here. The first was a disaster. The teacher was fresh out of college and had no concept of how to teach. The second was much better, the teacher was fabulous. But the problem with both classes is that they are targeted at people who already have a degree of fluency and just want to learn to speak Greek more correctly, or even to read and write.
I don't really fit in this category. I don't have any fluency though I can write (ie. I know the Greek alphabet, but I can't really compose) and read at about a 3rd grade level. But as I mentioned the second teacher I had was fabulous and didn't make me feel stupid (unlike the first). The best thing about the class was getting out of the house and meeting others in a similar situation to myself. My best friend now, another American, I met in class.
To get more back to the topic of this blog, a man came from Athens to visit my class and evaluate our progress. I was singled out, I assume as an American (there was a South American girl who did much worse than I did in his interview), for his criticism. He ignored the fact that I had been here in Greece for a much shorter time than any of the others in the class. Anyway, he pretty much berated me for not speaking better Greek. His advice for improving my Greek: listen to Greek music! What a joke. I have a hard enough time understanding Greek when I watch TV without throwing in the background noise of music.
Having said that I still liked the class (it is supposed to prepare you to go to Thessaloniki to take the tests for the various certificates). When classes start again after the new year I will try to go again, if nothing else I get to practice my listening skills in a non-threatening environment.
To Ethno:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have to admit, I really enjoy this group, because even though people may disagree, it appears that all are at least civil to each other. Thanks for that.
Now for your post:
You say, "Some significant advancements in the research fields of medicine are coming out of the Hippocration and Onassis centers. They are viewed as premier places of medicine and not only in Greece. This is a good start for the country. Hopefully this will continue and expand to other disciplines as well."
I agree that Greece has some wonderful doctors and some exceptional "private" hospitals. Personally, I find YGHEIA hospital and IASO (Hollargos) to be as good as USA hospitals if not better in some cases. And my baby daughter was born in MITERA hospital a few months ago, and the single room suite that my wife was in probably would not have been affordable in the states. So, we agree on that! Further, I find that Greek doctors appear to actually listen to me when I talk to them and not look at their watch and try and get me out of there like some doctors in California I've been to. And finally, in the states, my HMO insurance would not allow me to get the quality of specialists that I find in Greece for rock-bottom prices. For example, my dermatologist in Greece (one of the best in the country) studied at the same place that some Cedar Sinai American doctors studied at, but at least here I can afford him!!
So, yes, Greeks have done something lately. I just won't let them hear that from me when they are insulting me. That was my point. I don't have a beef with all Greeks, just the obnoxious ones.
Also, you say: We had an elite civilation that has been ravaged by "barbarians" for 20 centuries and you want to know "what have Greeks done for us lately"? LOL Come on Scruffy. That's a bit ridiculous, don't you think? Are the modern Egyptians the same people of Ancient Egypt? Not in the least and the answer is quite clear.
I think we agree in principle because you know that anyone that believes that a race of people can keep their "ethnic purity" for a couple of thousand years needs a good course in genetics because it is scientifically impossible.
Also, The "civilization" (GREEKS) of which you are talking about was the Golden Age of Athens which lasted about 80 years. It had disappeared well before Christ was born. The same was true back then as it is today, the worst enemy of the Greeks is the Greeks. Even Demosthenes referred to Alexander as a "barbarian".
Ethno also said paraphrased "Greeks are racist so what?"
Well, maybe if you were on the receiving end of that racism, you would think different. As a blond haired, blue eyed scruffy looking American male, being discriminated against is something that I'm just not used to in the states, but in Greece it happens time after time. And when I tell my African-American friends back in the states about this, they tell me, "Welcome to our world". Yes, all countries do discriminate sometimes, but since I live in Greece, I'm complaining and acting against it here.
DelawareDeb said...I envy you your fluency in Greek. I struggle. Especially because my husband doesn't speak Greek with me and I'm stuck at home most of the time with small children. And thanks for posting info for DD re: Greek classes. I wanted to tell her that free ones exist but didn't have any local info for her. (I'm not in Athens
Scruffy says: Well, you should only speak to your husband in Greek and maybe he'll do that as well, but I realize it's hard because there are so many things that just don't translate well from English to Greek, especially jokes, and I usually just speak English with my wife also.
To Mr. Kosta (and any other posters who wish to read):
From Scruffy American. An observation before my comment on your (Mr. Kosta) post:
It never ceases to amaze me how similar your (Greek) views are on any Greek related topic. By contrast, in the USA, when it comes to American foreign policy, generally there is always at least two points of view, some favoring our leadership, and some against. However, in Greece, whether it's the local kiosk man or an educated, expat Greek such as yourself living abroad, "conspiracy theories" against Greece are always in the air. It is never even questioned if the Greek position is 100% correct. It's always the non-Greek country's (USA) fault. I have a name for this. I call this the Greek "KAF Factor". "KAF" stands for "kapios allos ftai" (Someone else is at fault) other than the Greeks. I'd like for once to see a Greek, or Greek media report a differing point of view against Greek foreign policy. It just doesn't happen. Whether it's the country of Macedonia calling itself by it's legal name, or if the foreign media was too harsh on Greece about the Olympics, Greek views are always one sided in the truth that "GREECE IS ALWAYS RIGHT". Just amazes me. You couldn't get two Americans to agree on anything let alone something as important as foreign policy. Sorry Mr. Kostas, but I'm sure I'm not the only foreigner in ELLAS who notices this. Maybe you have some interesting history or a book title to throw my way that can explain this. I'm eager to hear about it!
Mr. Kosta, I'm heading out the door and will respond point by point to your post when I return.
Good night, from Athens, Greece.
SCRUFFY AMERICAN
OK, this has now gone way off topic. But I am going to let it continue as some of the issues being brought up are interesting. However, I would encourage people to also post about the original topic too. Maybe, I should start another post for this discussion? Hmm, I don't know. For now, I am going to leave it be.....
To anonymous (DL),
I wrote "According to the new European Social Survey, Greece is the least welcoming country in Europe as far as foreigners are concerned"
You wrote "No offense but this is a shallow and meaningless statement, and for anyone who knows Greece or general immigration issues in the EU, utterly out of context.Greece is relatively new to multiculturalism and has not had decades of discussion and education on the issues"
This is taken directly from a survey called the European Social Survey. I do not claim that it is completely accurate. What suprised me was the difference between the anti-foreigner feeling in Greece compared with the rest of Europe. I also wrote at the end of the post, my opinion.
"Greece is relatively new to multiculturalism and has not had decades of discussion and education on the issues."
The articles I post here, are generally things that are available online for all to read and debate. The next line I wrote was
"Many people are starting to have these debates which is positive to see."
I really believe that until a dialogue starts, there can be no solutions. That is what I am trying to do here and I am happy that this is happening. It is hard to read the negativity but my desire to get people talking overwhelms this factor.
All I ask is that we read carefully what people write (and I mean ALL of it) even if that means going back to the beginning of the debate and reading the whole thing over. And responding accordingly.
Diva, I've been thinking about how to keep people on topic in some of my blogs too and I came up with this idea.
Blogs are great to start off a dialogue but once you get over 10 comments, then I find that the discussion takes on a life of its own. So...here's what I was thinking...
Since your email inbox probably looks like mine after my Oxi Day blog, plus having to monitor the content of all those posts is really time consuming...why not add a chat link to the blog? It's a better tool for connecting people who want to discuss your blog topics without clogging up your inbox. Or is that too difficult to do? I wouldn't know. My blog is nowhere near as fancy as yours. :-)
Hmm. Great thought. I'm not sure how to do it. Generally I personally don't like chat because unless you are there at that moment you miss the gist. But that's kind of selfish because people should be able to debate issues without me and my 2 pence worth. I'm going to look into it right now and see what can be done if people are keen on the idea.
As to "My blog is nowhere near as fancy as yours" Fancy smancy. It's the basic template that I farted around with because I know about five things to do with html and I messed with the template! If I can help you with anything, which I doubt, feel free to ask.
From Scruffy American:
Mr. Kostas, (and anyone else interested)
My initial post (if I can remember now) was commenting on how I address Obnoxiuos Greeks when they attempt to insult me based on my foreign status. I use my knowledge of American aid to Greece as a starting point to put them in their place. Now, remember, my post is not about defending America but rather letting a certain population of Greeks know that they may be wrong in discriminating against foreigners since they themselves have been foreigners (immigrants) in my country.
Further, when you say I'm throwing around accusations and not sticking to facts, I don't believe that I'm accusing anyone, it's just an observation as I said in my last post. In fact, you did not comment on the topic I discussed which was about Greeks and the "kapios allos ftai" factor. In fact, you proved my theory by pointing fingers at America, which is what a lot of Greeks I meet do. It's not an accusation, it's merely a fact that I experience each and every day. I must remind you, that my comments to you are not to debate anti-American propanda. This blog is mainly about life in Greece. If you'd like to debate that, I'm also willing.
However, If you find that I'm defensive so be it and if you choose not to debate me, that's your right, but I'm certainly not going to cower my opinion in some corner so that I can appease your thought that I'm not sticking to facts and merely defensive.
Now, if you are still reading this, here's my response to your initial post to me. Now, I know that you say that you hold Greece accountable for some of their own mistakes, but you got me on a roll, and I just can't stop.
Regarding your comment on the "meddling" of the US in Greece:
- As for the "meddling" the US did in Greece, it was to stop the killing of each other which began in December 1944 and you neglected to mention. The UK had to pull a couple of brigades of their troops from the war against fascism to put down the infighting between the Greek communists and the rightists. In 1947 Britain was no longer able to bear the cost of keeping these animals pacified and that is why the US had to step in with the Truman Doctrine etc. (Do not forget the Truman Doctrine also applied to other countries besides Greece.)
- Your statement about the Marshall Plan indicates a grudging acknowledgment of feeding not only the Greeks but all of Europe. You also referred to "Soviet influence". If you want to say that countries like Albania, Czechoslavakia, Bulgaria, Rumania, Hungary, etc. came under "Soviet influence" peacefully through democratically elected governments then you have not read the same history books I have read. Looking back, perhaps you are right. Maybe the US should not have assisted Greece back then. Fifty years of Soviet socialism and totalitarianism would have done them some good here like it did to the rest of the Eastern Europeans. Today's Greeks would be like the rest of the East Europeans here - the men would be handymen and waiters, the older women would be scrubbing apartment building staircases and their daughters would be prostitutes. Only then would they be more appreciative of what the US has done for the world. Ask some of the Poles, Hungarians etc. which country was their beacon of hope during the Cold War.
- As to Greek defense spending, if they are dumb enough to fall into the trap they deserve what they get. No one put a knife to their throat telling them they had to buy all that weapon junk. Greece does not even need a big air force. Besides their ability for flying their aircraft into mountains during IFR conditions, they would be wiped out in the first few hours by any enemy because the country is so small there is no place to hide their fighter aircraft. Putting them underground would be cost prohibitive. A more cost effective defense would be a reserve system whereby a million troops could be called up in 24 hours. The troops would be trained in guerrilla warfare in which Greeks can be very effective. But then Greek politicians and middlemen would not be able to stick their fingers in the honeypot called the Greek taxpayer's money.
- As to the 1967 Coup, unless you have documentation to the contrary, it was not CIA inspired. Yes, there were mistakes made in subsequent US lukewarm support of the junta but the US did not bring on the junta. It was brought on by the Greeks themselves. Greece had more than its share of military governments in the 19th and 20th centuries. Who do you blame for the military government of Panagalos in 1927, the Metaxa coup of 1934? It just happened that in 1967 the US was around and the KAF factor kicked in.
- Sorry to hear about your Grandpa having a hard time getting to the hospital but I am sure they would not have shot him as you state. Greek hyperbole is legend.
- As to the partition of Cyprus between Greeks and Turks, I shall not take the time to answer some State Department document which I have no intention of reading because I am well aware that your information has been taken out of context. My only point on the subject is that since 1974 the partition has worked. The killings between the hotheads from both communities, Greek and Turkish, has stopped. If the Greeks had not been so greedy and compromised, as is their ethnic trait (see Debacle of 1922 Imperialist Invasion of Turkish Interior by Greeks), perhaps the island would still be under one government today.
- As for the Byzantine Empire and the rest of that stuff, Greece was just a province of the empire then, and it was ruled by the Romans. Even Constantine the Great could not speak any Greek - only Latin. (As an aside, Constantine killed his first born son and his wife believing they were plotting to usurp the throne. This is indicative why many Greeks name their kids Konstantinos.) If you wish to learn more about the Byzantine Empire I would suggest that you pick up the trilogy of books written by John Julius Norwich or you can read the abbreviated version "A Short History of Byzantium." I found it fascinating. I learned that one of the Church Patriarchs was 16 years old (brother of the Emperor) and another was a eunuch.
- Regarding the Greeks treatment they received in the US when they immigrated: The Greeks who immigrated to the US in the early part of the last century came to a country which already had many immigrants from other countries. Government positions were already occupied by the Irish so that road was closed to them. The same thing applies to the East European immigrants that come to Greece today. There were two avenues of occupation for the Greek immigrants - private entrepreneurs or laborers. The East Europeans also have two venues but not quite the same as the Greeks in America.
The first is as laborers but the second is illegal entrepreneurship. I write illegal because the licenses issued by the Greek bureaucracy take ages and lots of money to procure. This necessitates illegal businesses such as making illegal copies of CD's and other items and in turn having the Africans sell them on the street.
The other item of historical interest to you is that the immigrant Greeks in the turn of the century had the highest crime rate of all the immigrants. You write that there was discrimination against the Greek immigrants. Of course there was, considering the fact that in the large US cities like Chicago and New York and other cities in the West where the Greeks worked on building the railroads, they had the highest crime rate. In 1909, for instance, a Greek shot and killed a South Omaha, Nebraska policeman after he was stopped for questioning. The killing resulted in the burning of 36 stores belonging to his countrymen by the citizens of S. Omaha who had had their fill of the Greeks with their stabbings, shootings, rapes, thievery. At that time Greece asked $140,000 compensation from the US, and the Congress gave them the $40,000. Greeks in America did not gain any stature in America not from what they did but what their countrymen did in 1940 in the mountains of Albania.
From all of the above I have concluded that:
a. Greeks are unable to govern themselves. This is why countries and empires have had to keep them on a short leash.
b. Greeks are very hypocritical. They accuse other countries of doing what they would like to do. The "Megali Idea" is a good example. Their dream in 1922 was to extend the frontiers of Greece to the same boundaries as Alexander the Great had achieved. They thought they were smart. What they did not count on is that there is always someone just a little bit smarter than they are.
c. Greeks are very irresponsible and politically immature. Even their political leadership admits this and does not trust them to make political decisions. Ask any Greek when was the last time he or she voted in a referendum. He did not vote on such issues as whether he wanted to join the European Union, NATO, or replace the drachma with the euro. Other Europeans had that choice.
d. During the PASOK government (which was in power for almost 25 years) the Archbishop of Greece told the then Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou, "You may be the Prime Minister but we (meaning the Church of Greece) have been ruling this country for 17 centuries." Nothing has changed since then. The Church of Greece owns 34% of all Greek land. When an institution has that kind of wealth and does not pay taxes one has to be an imbecile to believe that foreign powers are the cause of its woes. They have all types of sexual perversions, and once in awhile some of their misdeeds come to the surface as did recently when the Bishop of Attica had over $3 million stashed away for his "old age." But the surface has not even been scratched. The Greek Government has been trying for the last five years to catalog all the land in Greece to determine what property belongs to who. The Church of Greece is against it and the EU, in spite of its directive and the money it has given Greece to do so, can do nothing about it. When the EU stated that all EU countries would have one identity card, without the individual's religion on it, the Church of Greece managed to get one million people out in the streets to protest. The government did manage to change it but the Church of Greece does not consider the issue closed, and at every opportunity the beards are out to change it back.
e. The EU came out with a study last month that in education Greece rates last in what the students learn but first in the number of classroom hours of attendance - average of 27 hours for the rest of the EU kids and 45 hours for the Greek kids. The Greek kids are learning useless subjects for making a living like theology and Ancient Greek. This is to the benefit of the Church since they are able to maintain their control over an uneducated public easier more than an educated one. This is why one hears idle conversations and theorizing about who did what during the Cyprus situation or about the Turks being at fault for everything wrong in Greece, and not how high technology is going to be used to make country more efficient and productive (Greece has the lowest percentage of internet connections in the EU.)
So you see, my friend, while you are sitting over five thousand miles away listening to one side of the story as related by some idealistic Americans of Greek descent who "know Greece" based on one or two trips they made here I am giving you the side that you will never experience until you decide to move here for good.
If you really want to help Greece hold their feet to the fire. Let them know you are not interested in their sob stories about what happened yesterday. Most, if not all of those people are dead. Ask what is going to happen tomorrow. Fingerpointing and the rest of that baloney is for the uneducated. You need to tell them that you have some money to invest and for them to give you reasons as to why you should invest your money in a country which is controlled by the Church and the labor unions? Where terrorism against American government employees is applauded by the populace and the Archbishop of Greece, the country's spiritual leader, pronounced on the 9/11 event "The powerful of the earth learned the wrath of God." This is the kind of climate which brought in only $47 million of foreign investment for all of 2003 - not what America did or did not do years ago.
It's time for the Greeks to mature and babying them will not accomplish anything.
Hope you learned something today.
from Scruffy American
Just a thought to Scruffy American and Kostas and Co. Why don't you sign in as your tags/nicknames rather than anonymous? It would make it easier for me (and maybe the rest of us?) to follow your arguments and comments without having to scroll down vast tracts to find out who is writing. Do not take this wrongly. You may post how you wish in the end. Just for us sad folks who have carpal tunnel syndrome and various wrist related problems (I tell no lies), it would help!
Thank you, though, for your contributions.
Hey scruffy american, every word is on the mark, there is only one little thing you forgot to mention, the ministry responsible for education in Greece is the Ministry of Education and Religion! Cool ha? The Church has managed to make it so that for a Greek to feel Greek he has to also be Orthodox. Which means, so a Catholic Greek friend of mine tells me, being an outsider in his own country of birth. The Greeks complain a lot about the fact that in Thraki the citizens are leaning more and more towards Turkey. But see they are Muslim Greeks, even to visit them, or indeed for them to leave their area, they need to get a permit from the police. It is an enclave, in effect a concentration camp with bells on. How are you supposed to feel when you know you are Greek but your country won't accept you on the grounds of your religion?
Scruffy,
A few points...
I think we agree in principle because you know that anyone that believes that a race of people can keep their "ethnic purity" for a couple of thousand years needs a good course in genetics because it is scientifically impossible.
While I admit to admixture within Greece at the hands of 2 millenia's worth of occupation and intermingling, there are places that are relatively pristine in ethnic purity. Finland and Iceland are two in Europe. Sweden is as well relatively speaking, even with its genocidal socialist governmental policy that wants more and more immigrants due to some warped guilt complex and despite the TRUE unemployment rates in the high teens to low twenty percent. Then we have Japan and large swaths of China which are genetically undisturbed. There are a hanful or two more, but less so. But then again, the point remains that one is not arguing for genetic purity, but one of anti-Braziliazation and the human right to navigate our destiny as we see fit as an ethnic people without the imposition of leftist "do-gooders".
Well, maybe if you were on the receiving end of that racism, you would think different. As a blond haired, blue eyed scruffy looking American male, being discriminated against is something that I'm just not used to in the states, but in Greece it happens time after time. And when I tell my African-American friends back in the states about this, they tell me, "Welcome to our world". Yes, all countries do discriminate sometimes, but since I live in Greece, I'm complaining and acting against it here.
I'm sorry that you are discriminated against, though I am 100% certain that nearly all the people who do it are good at heart and are just reactionary instead of being more thoughtful. Actually, would you care to specify the nature of your discrimination? Out of curiosity.
We have felt discrimination in the US. At least my parents did. They put their heads down and moved on. They didn't dwell on it, nor burn and break things like some do. It does not matter so much of the discrimination as it does on how it is handled and what comes out of it. That is my belief. There are professional bitchers and moaners who shriek whenever the slightest whiff of discrimination is perceived. Others are not like that. Funny you mention black reactions to your situation in Greece. The American Black is a unique creature that has been selected for physical labor and has been kept in a slave mentality and perpetual "discrimination" at the hands of do-gooder leftists. Of course they are discriminated against because they neither want nor are capable of integration within the fabric of the US. They have been catered to for decades now with all sorts of racist, anti-white programs and it has only WORSENED their plight. Every failure and every slight is due to "white racism", they are told. They have become quite adept at repeating this now. Some is due to white racism, for sure. LIBERAL whites that is, who felt the appropriate way to treat a race of people is if they are incapable children. They will forever be the albatross around the US's neck. And of course no goddamn white will ever speak up about this truth now.
As for your response to Kosta, there are some things that are true and others, not. I will respond if Kosta does not, though not tonight. I am quite exhausted.
To Kosta and Ethno (and anyone else interested in this thread).
That was quite a bit of info for more to digest and I'll have to get back to you in about a day. I'm going to be away from Athens on Friday, and will enjoy formulating my response on Saturday. And, I applaud both of you two for keeping it civil. I've been to many message boards where if you don't agree with folks, they use profanity to shout you down. So, even though I may not agree with you, I certainly enjoy your cordiality with me on these sensitive topics.
Cheers,
Scruffy
Last night, some 10,000 people attended the march in Thessaloniki, which turned out to be more violent as groups of anarchists threw firebombs at police before running into university grounds, which officers are not allowed to enter. Protesters also burned two American flags in front of the US Consulate.
Can I ask a dumb question? Ok, I understand that they can't enter the university (which is ludicrious, because the university is in essence harboring fugitives, and maybe the university staff should be prosecuted as accessories to harboring a criminal), but can't the police just wait outside the gate until these bozos come out and then just arrest them?
I think too many greeks spend to much time talking about their glorious past, thousands of years ago. Etnhocentric talks about "brasiliation". Well, Brazil has a short history, they are far from being genetically pure, but they are a big nation, with a strong economy, and a vast and diverse culture, and lots of bad things, and lots of wonderfull things, but moving to the future. They are the exact opposite of Greece. I think greeks should move along, fast forward. I learned already almost everithing about Greek history, mithology, alexander the great, etc. I want to know more about Greece today.
Portuondo
ethnocentrist wrote "The American Black is a unique creature that has been selected for physical labor and has been kept in a slave mentality and perpetual "discrimination" at the hands of do-gooder leftists. Of course they are discriminated against because they neither want nor are capable of integration within the fabric of the US. They have been catered to for decades now with all sorts of racist, anti-white programs and it has only WORSENED their plight."
And you wonder why I get angry with you? Black Americans are not creatures for a start. Let's start, at the very least, from the basis that we are all people. Surely, even you cannot deny that is true. Black people were brought to America as slaves and were treated with unbelievable cruelty and discrimination. Treated in ways you or I could not even imagine. Freedom from slavery was hard won by black people themselves with the help of some white people (in the same way womens emancipation was gained by women themselves with the help of some men). The slave mentality you speak of is long gone and what you are seeing (and are afraid of) is black people wanting equal rights in all aspects of society in America (and that does take legislation because there are still so many who would rather they were still slaves) You say black people "neither want nor are capable of integration" Can you not see how racist you are? How is working towards equality for ALL americans be racist and anti-white? DO you say the same about programmes and legislation that enable women to be treated fairly and equally is anti-men? This kind of post is only worthy of the white nationalist boards elsewhere on the internet. Not here.
And don't forget that the Greeks were the ones who first brought slaves to the US via their ships. Don't believe me? Go to New Orleans and ask around. The first Greek Church in America is in New Orleans.
Diva,
I do not have time to comment in detail and will do so later. By using the term "creature", it was not meant to imply some sort of "animal" and not human. I could have easily said the Swede is an interesting sort of creature or Greek or White or European or whatever and it wouldn't have registered with anyone. Blacks are hypersensitive to this and always see racism. Part of it is real and the other part is simple anti-white indoctrination. More later.
Well, if you know that black people are hypersensitive to this, why choose to write it on a blog belonging to a black person? Anyway, coming from someone who also said we were savage, it's hardly surprising I take offence.
As a gay man and a gay journalist, I'd like to way in on this debate. Many people discriminate against gays also. Even in Greece, although Mykonos is known as the gay haven, Greeks are generally very hostile. And remember, I'm saying this as a gay man and a gay journalist.
Ethno and Kostas: I will wait for you to finish my post but overall it's so tiring to debate poiont by point. In a nut shell, this posting blog is about Greece and our experience about Greece and predjudice. I don't really want to debate the USA on this post. There are other avenues out there for that if you'd like to do that. I will say this last comment on my America.
"America is only doing what any other country would do if they were able. Conducting it's foreign policy for it's own interests. Which country does not conduct foreign policy for it's own interests?"
- Scruffy American - 2005
Welcome, Doug Dangur. Please feel free to wade in. Your insights will be very welcome to me.
Hello Deviousdiva, Thank you for the welcome. One of the things that gay men have is what we call "gaydar" which is sort of like radar, and works just the same. It allows us to be able to see things that straight people miss. For example, when I met some nice young straight men in Mykonos and tried to explain that there was nothing wrong with Alexander the Great being a gay man, I was verbally accosted and they treated me very rudely. I asked them why they would be so upset. Being gay is not a crime, and certainly they should be proud of Alexander regardless of his sexual identity. We gay men are just darn proud of the ancient Greeks. Plato, Socrates, and many others were purported to have been gay. Additionally, ancient Greece was full of gay men, and it just gives me a chill when I visit all those ruins and think of how those times must have been. But, unfortunately, it's not just the country of modern Greece that is homophobic. Even in the USA, people have been against gays. With me specifically, in my weekly column, I once reported in the year 2000, that the ABC news organization refused to air a show with Leonardo DiCaprio interviewing President Bill Clinton. I wrote that they didn't air the interview because there was way too much sexual tension between the two men. I received a bit of hate mail for that column. On another occasion, in 2002, I stated that gays across America will rise up and revolt if there is not a "Big Gay Win" at the Oscars that year. In addition, I have the dubious honor of being first gay journalist to sit within 10 rows of the stage during the academy awards in 2004. Anyways, I'm in Greece til the summer and look forward to more postings.
Kisses...
Heard of the "gadar". That gives me away doesn't it? LOL! While I don't give a sh**t,there are lot's who do. That was a real eye opener about LDC and Bill. Too much sexual tension eh? Would love to have seen that!! Who do you write for? Do you have your own blog? Of course, you don't have to answer but I am intrigued! I want to read more. I wish I could post my email adress for you but I can't. Anyway, please write more. Filakia DD
Unfortunately, racism these days comes in all forms. It really astonishes me how many things people can find to be prejudiced about. Love is love, and the gay stereotype - the one where people assume all gays are promiscuous and try to influence other men to be gay and whatever is so ignorant. I highly doubt there are any more promiscuous gays out there than there are promiscuous heterosexuals. But still, who cares? Why should we judge people based on their sexual tendencies? You don't see homosexuals pointing and laughing and being prejudiced against straight people, do you? Of course not. Perhaps they should, to put it into perspective for some people. I guess it all goes towards the question of what we call tolerance, apparently, the world doesn't tolerate much.
By the way, the whole Greece and America foreign policy thing, and what America was involved with, etc., is fascinating to me but not something I am very familiar with, so I'll stay quiet on the subject.
Regarding Homosexuality:
While I am a firm believer that homosexuality is from nature and not nurture, I have reservations on the extent it is flaunted on the collective society. When my daughter, who was ten at the time, had to CONSCIOUSLY come to the conclusion on her own that "she was not bi but only liked boys", then the influence of homosexuality and bisexuality is a wee bit too much. No? I do not think preteens and children need to have this thrown at them all the damn time, if at all, where they might get confused. I do not think this will "turn them gay", however we all know the hormones and near psychosis that IS the teen. During these confusing times, some MAY want to experiment because apparently it is "normal" just "different", and with this can screw them up royally. It is not normal, nor should it be taught as such. Period.
Scruffy states:
"America is only doing what any other country would do if they were able. Conducting it's foreign policy for it's own interests. Which country does not conduct foreign policy for it's own interests?"
Then America should drop the "freedom" charade, shouldn't it? America, in reality, is far from the champion of human rights and freedom and more in line to being an imperialistic, global bully. More so with "Bush the Dumber" in charge. What's even worse is that it is doing this with our money and our future, indebted to this cause. There is no fighting for democracy or for human rights or even for global safety. It is manipulating lesser countries for its own gain and to enrich and empower an oligarchy of overly privileged.
Ethno, freedom is something that America espouses, especially among countries that it has occupied. For example, Germany and Japan are now two of the richest countries in the world. By contrast the former Soviet Union did not have that same mentality. Would you like to compare two of their bloc countries assets? I think not! America will always have foes who are just plain jealous. Jealous, jealous, jealous! In most societies, the poor people are jealous of the rich people. If you don't like what America does, then get a richer, bigger, more powerful country and impose your will on the world. I'd much prefer America ruling the world because the results (proven above) are much better. How about we wait til China gets to be in charge, and let's see if they don't make chop suey out of Greece and the rest of the world. Enjoy the days of being able to critize America, because I doubt China will be so accomodating. That's why I love living in Greece though. The Greeks are so brave (sic) when it comes to demonstrating against America for whatever ails them. (my KAF factor--see previous posts) Not one American soldier has ever killed a Greek in any war or battle, but still the demonstrations continue. By contrast, the Turks continue to invade your airspace on daily basis and I've not once in the 20 years I've lived here seen a demonstration at their embassy. Why? Because they are afraid!!! That's why. They know that demonstrating against America is safe because we won't hurt them. Try that at the Turkish embassy and see what happens. And, The Germans killed over 500,000 Greeks in WWII. How about a demonstration at their embassy? Or is it that they (Greeks) forgot? And finally, I'm venting aginst Greeks now, but that's what this blog is about I thought. I'm tired of hearing (from Greeks) about how stupid Americans are for voting for Bush. At least Bush will leave in a few years. By contrast, the Greeks voted for Pandreou and PASOK for 20 years and we know what they did to the Greek economy. Who is more stupid?
Darling Diva,
Thank you so much for the wonderful comments... By the way, your photo is just fabulous. I love that hair!! You have been in L.A. haven't you. I've seen you somewhere. Anyways, I'm sort of on the run here in Greece and avoiding certain peeps from Los Angeles. My previous Blog, "As a Gay man and a Gay Journalist" is not currently up, but will be soon.
Melusina-- you are so right girl! We gay men do make fun of straight people, we're just more discrete. For example, I was sanctioned for this comment I made on a local radio show in Los Angeles. I said, "Looking at straight marriage is like looking at a retarded child trying to take apart a Buick.". Now, I have nothing against retarded children, and was only using it as a metaphor. Anyways, with so many people against gay marriage, I have for one advocated a constitutional amendment banning straight divorce. Honey, let's see how they like that huh!
I saw the other post (ethnocentrist) regarding homosexuals and his daughter choosing to be straight. Isn't that just nice that Greek parents allow their children to make choices. I wish more American parents were that liberal in their views. It's just amazes me how homophobic some people can be. Wow, I’m rambling now.
Here's some topics I've discussed in the past years:
In 2000, I claimed that gay guys watch Friends for David Schwimmer because he has such a great body. Does he still though?
In 2002, when Ben Affleck was voted Sexiest Man in People magazine, I said that women are really attracted to losers. Can anyone disagree?
In 2004, I had the inspiration to come up with my own list of the "Top 100 Most Influential Country Artists Of All Time". I believe that it takes a gay man and a gay journalist to finally come up with a truthful, correct list.
By the way, did I also menion that I'm a movie critic, and with my special power of "Gay-Eye", I can tell if a movie stinks before I even see it!
Hi GMGJ!Looking forward to your blog. Nice to have someone here with a sense of humour! sadly lacking rounds these parts (and I include myself in that comment.) No, never been to LA, but if I did I'm sure to be an overnight sensation? See you around.
Hi Mel, Absolutely.
Ethno says...
You seem, to use the American colloquialism, to want to cover all bases. You've mentioned you are black, European, British, Jamaican. My, my how lucky you are. You use black when it suits you, British and European when it suits you, and Jamaican when it suits you. Which is it? Or are you all of the above?
I still don't see why you must single out Diva for stating that she's black? She didn't lie. So what's the big deal? If I were to state that I'm white would you then expect me to choose whether or not I'm Canadian, or white or of German/French/Scottish/British descent. I am all of those things. I just don't expect to have to post my genealogy every time I want to make a point. If a someone tells me that all women are stupid then as a woman, I would be offended. If someone would tell me all whites are rednecks, I would probably say I'm white and I'm offended because I'm not a redneck. I don't see why I have to choose any part of my ethnic background...it's all part of what makes me "me". I can't separate them. Neither should Diva have to.
Hi SeaWitch, I was going to address ethnocentrists last comment to me but there was just too much and I don't have time (or maybe, more accurately, the inclination). I also did not want this to fall into a slanging match between the two of us again. People can see for themselves what his stance is and I welcome anyone and everyone to respond.
Now that you posted about that particular part of the comment,I don't feel it is necessary for me to do so. You put it extremely well. I think he will find it easier to take coming from you. Thank you.
Scruffy,
You're smarter than your typical American, so act that way EVEN IF the topic of America comes up. I know the knee jerk, patriotic reaction is to do what you just did, however, let's call a spade a spade, shall we? The only difference between American hegemony and a Chinese one would be the number of dead. America has killed for simple power and money.
As to the disgusting commie demonstrators, well yes, I agree completely with you. Chicken shits, all of them.
Ok Ethnos, we finally have common ground. If we both don't like commies, then why can't we agree that at least with America they do things which leave some sort of freedom in place. Do you really think that the only difference between China and US would be the number of dead. Now, I could ask you to be smarter than the average Greek, but I won't. How about just repeat that if you truly believe it. I think you won't. China is an oppressive country where they wouldn't even allow people to disagree with the government. Has America done that? Not even with Iraq have we imposed any restrictions on their freedoms except for the normal martial law things that all invasions have at the beginning. I know because I have friends (USAF) in Iraq at this moment. Regular American guys risking their lives so some Iraqi is not afraid to get milk at the store wihtout being harassed by Sadaam and his type of thugs. It's more dangerous there now than before I realize but that's part of freedom. Under Sadaams rule, people were afraid just like any Junta. It's one thing to be an armchair quarterback, and it's another to actually know what's going on in Iraq. So, please be honest, and let's move on (or Se-Cola) as you all say in Ellas. Or are you just egging me on all the while knowing that you (as a Greek-American maybe?) are just excercising your right to disagree. How about going to any Muslim country and try that. Get back to me and let me know how you fared?
Scruffy,
Yes, I am a Greek American. I view the US as a big hypocrite. The US is not in Iraq for "freedom", nor for the "war on terror". It is there for purely selfish, Zionist reasons. Pure and simple. Also, as mentioned in a post on Phylax about Serbia, they bombed a country they knew they could get away with without any significant backlash under the guise "humanitarianism". BULL-FUCKING-SHIT! How about the ethnic cleansing and inhumanity that occurs in North Korea and China? Why isn't the "Champion of Freedom" invading those places? Why? Because they would lose and there isn't the incentive for them to waste their time. It's all a ruse, my dear friend. It's all about power and money. Not for freedom, nor for people.
Don't take this as a vote for liberalism or communism, because it is not. I just think that America's ideology is no different(as you stated in your question) than these other places and the only difference is they try and maintain a facade of global protector. What I am seeing with Bush the Dumber is not very encouraging because he has done tremendous damage to the Constitution and the freedoms most Americans enjoy with this "war on terror" bullshit. The Constitution is being chipped away slowly but surely and eventually, a military Junta will be in place if allowed to go far enough.
Wooeeey Diva, As a gay man and a gay journalist, I noticed that your site attracts quite a bunch of testosterone filled men does it not?
To the boys arguing, "Can't we just all get along like the men on Star Trek". I have an idea, why don't we all get together for a nice cobb salad, white wine, and listen to a few old Judy Garland albums. This would be much more fun than arguing politics. We could dress up as our favorite characters from Star Trek. (I get to be Capt Kirk--I just love that man)
Sounds like that Ethnos and Scruffy really need to just chill out.
To Gay Doug,
Isn't that just nice that Greek parents allow their children to make choices. I wish more American parents were that liberal in their views.
I think the more correct interpretation was that we were horrified that she even had to come up with a "choice" at all. She obviously made a "choice" that was genetically predisposed to her being heterosexual. The issue is the homosexual indoctrination that children are exposed to. That needs to stop.
Don't tell me you are the only homosexual that "chose" to be gay, are you?
Now you listen here ethni, you big bully! How dare you say that children shouldn't be exposed to homosexuals. Where should we go and live? Should we just stay in our homes and hide? Maybe we should be moved to a Greek Island in exile? Are we not allowed to have a life and the right to coexist with children, adults, and animals on this planet. I would have thought that a Greek man knowing so much about the history of Greece and with all those foreign invasions (and handsome invading men no less) would have an understanding of what the gay man has gone through in this day and age.
Generally, when I see a person that is so much against homosexuals, I have to ask if that person is comfortable with their own sexuality. Now, I'm not saying that you are a closet gay (are you?), but some of my most best gay friends were men who initially fought against our movement to conceal their own gayness. So, maybe you need to do some soul searching yourself. Or maybe you do not. I don't know, but it seems you are becoming quite aggressive with your comments on this blog, not only homophobic, but against blacks, and misogynistic as well. If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but at least why don't you just calm down and let's talk about this. My offer for white wine and cobb salad still stands if you are interested. By the way, I'm supposed to meet with famed Greek (gay) fashion designer Lakis Gavellas if my agent can get in contact with him. Do you know him or where his office is?
If I'm wrong, then I apologize
You're wrong. Apology accepted. Funny thing is, I beginning to get the impression you're just a gay caricature looking to yank chains.
Hi GMGJ,
Don't I get to come to the Star Trek party? I'm coming as Scotty.
"Even if we were under full scale attack I couldn't move any faster, not and maintain a safety factor." -- Scotty, The Naked Time, stardate 1704.2, Episode 7
I don't even understand ethnocentrist's last comment to you, do you?
Hi there Diva,
I believe Ethni was trying to say that he believes that I am playing up my gayness in sort of an exaggerated way i.e. caricature. In some ways, he is correct. When I first came out of the closet years ago, many "silly queens" as they are called were hated even by mainstream gays as making the gay movement look bad. But, in the year 2005, I refuse anyone to tell me what being gay means to me, and if I want to be a silly queen, and slur my speech with a lisp and walk with a bent wrist, by golly I'm going to do it.
What caught my attention more on Ethni's last post was his reference to a little known gay code phrase known as "yanking chains". Now, I won't go into what that means on this post, but it's not something that a normally straight individual would come up with. By all means, I'm not saying that Ethni's gay, but I'd be darn curious to know where he has heard that expression before and especially using it in context with a comment to a gay man and a gay journalist. Again, as a disclaimer, if I'm wrong, then I apologize, but the signs indicate something might be there.
Kisses from my friend's castle in Kastri....
LOL
Gay Doug, you're funny and we both know the term "yanking one's chain" was not invented by homosexuals. Enough of the not so covert innuendoes and goading. If you have anything of substance to say, then say it. Otherwise, the Queen act becomes a bit tiresome. You never did answer if you think homosexuality is a "choice". Do you?
Kosta,
Great post and I agree with nearly everything you said. Including the part about China being such a malevolent global power WHEN the US becomes a second, or third world nation. I was simply yanking Scruffy's chain just a little bit(oops, there goes my closet homosexual tendencies acting up again). As to Turkey and the Greek elites, this goes to the selfish nature and corruption of them. The borderless, nationless, One World Government ideology that the left envisions. It confused me for a while as well until I looked at the entire picture.
Ethnocentrist: If you have such bad feelings about the US and wish to see it become a 2nd or 3rd world country, why don't you go down to Vas. Sofias 91 and turn in your US Passport. Oh, I forgot, you like a lot of Greeks have that passport so you can save your butt when the Turks invade. I'm always amazed by the anti-americans who expect us to save them in a time of need all the while bad mouthing everything we stand for. Since you are just pulling my chain then, I won't respond anymore to your nonsense. Unless of course, you were just pulling my chain about actually pulling my chain. Wow, don't I feel real gay now! Let's have that white wine!
LOL
Scruffy, I like your style, for sure. I don't hate the US, nor am I anti-American. What I am is mature enough to know hypocrisy when I see it and the US is hypocritical. The US has always(this past century is my timeline) been this way, though I either didn't know, didn't care, or simply believed the mantra. I used to spout the same mantra..."America, love it or leave it". Well, now I think it is MUCH more productive to spot problems and try to correct them or at least bring light to the subject. I'd appreciate it if you did not lump me in with all the anarchists that demonstrate against the US with violence and Molotovs. I would never do that nor do I condone it. The US is a wonderful place overall, though it does have its problems and being honest about it does not make one anti-American.
As to wishing 2nd and 3rd world status on the US, that is exactly what I do NOT want, yet that is the direction we are heading. Mass, non-assimilating immigration, increased debt, middle class evaporation, and jobs being exported to the lowest third world bidders will simply devastate the US and will wreak havoc on society. This, quite sadly is coming. I see it. It can be stopped, though it is NOT in the interests of the elite to stop it.
How long has it been since you've been back to the US and have seen the drastic changes that have occurred in the last 5-10 years?
Ok Ethno,
Thanks for throwing me the olive branch and also for clarifying your position. Ok, good, you are not Anti-American and in fact, you are just an American who is questioning things. Ok, now that I know that I will not treat you as a GREEK (which is what I thought you were initially). What you are is a GREEK-AMERICAN and I actually respect their opinions more since they (you) actually have lived there or at least have been to the states.
I cannot count the number of times that a local Greek will start complaining about the states, and when I ask the "baiter" question of "Wow, you seem to know so much about the states, how many times have you been there or where did you live in the states". More times than not, they say they have NEVER been to the states, but have a friend who has been there, etc. So, I say "OH, I SEE, YOU ARE BASING ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF AMERICA ON WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAYS BUT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE HUH". I have so much fun when they fall in that trap.
Ethno, I also realize that the states is not perfect. My wife and I have a home in Greece and also a home in Newport Beach, California. The people in Newport Beach (where the OC television show is based) are very shallow and generally do not know a thing about foreign policy or anything more than local news. It frustrates me. People don't react or even realize that the US is changing right around them. Now, I'm not one of these people who will say that Americans are dumb and uninformed. What I will say is that most Americans CHOOSE to be uninformed. Because with the click of a mouse you can access internet sites such as CNN, FOX, BBC, AL-JAZEERA, CBC, Australian news, and I can go on. If the average American wanted to be informed, he could. As my mother once put it. "World opinion, who cares? Do these other countries pay my bills? NO!"
By contrast, most Local Greeks (even if they speak English) rarely check out foreign news sources. They may watch their channels commenting on what a foreign news source said, but in those cases, the local channels have selected very carefully what comments get broadcasted. (Case in point, whenever they interview a foreign tourist about Greece, it's always positive, you never hear anything negative). So, local Greeks are really hostage to their bias news sources. They never get the other side of the story.
So, in closing, I think that our debates in the future will be less abrasive now because I will remember that you are an AMERICAN who happens to have Greek ancestry and that you are not one of the local knuckleheads I encounter on the Bus or Metro in Athens every day.
God Bless America!!!
First for Ethno: (and anyone else who's interested)
I was at the local bakery a few weeks ago, and I was speaking English to an American friend who didn't know Greek. The clerk (an attractive 30 something blond), when we brought our stuff up to the counter said "Deio Ekosi" (TWO-TWENTY". I said to my friend "TWO-TWENTY" in English. The clerk looked at me and said in ENGLISH "NOT TWO TWENTY" and pronounced it in ENGLISH with her Greek Accent. I reiterated the American accent "TWO TWENTY". She then started telling me in GREEK that she did not like the ENGLISH accent. I told her, that's ok, because I'm American. She then said, "that's even worse" and "DEN HONEVO Tous Americanous" I am not fond (or don't like) Americans. I said, WHY NOT. She said, YOU PEOPLE START WARS. I told her I didn't start any war today? I just wanted some bread. But, as I put the stuff back on the counter, and decided not to buy it after all, I told her, (IN GREEK) "You know what I'm going to do lady, I'm going to call President Bush and tell him what you said, and I'm sure he won't be able to sleep tonight worrying about what you said". She then gawked and me and we left. I'm not going back there again. And I tell everyone I know (Greeks included) not to go there. So far, I've got 10 people boycotting that jerk!!!
Now, for Kosta (cc: Ethno) and anyone else who'd like to see.
So, as a way to keep it less abrasive, I'm only debating issues based on things I see in Greece, and if you wish to explain why that is by saying that "AMERICA" or "KAF FACTOR" or what have you, I won't disagree, but I'd like to press on anyways.
So, Kosta, regarding the way things are between Greece and America: Why doesn't Greece have a referendum which asks the Greeks one simple question, "Do you want to sever all relations with the United States of America, to include importation of all US products, services and Cultural exchanges?" They should get out on the streets like the dogs and demonstrate until this referendum is put to the people. But, I think we know the answer to that. Greek leadership, as I've said before, realizes the people are politically immature and thus does not allow them to vote on a referendum.
Regarding the comment about the Greeks and Turks being so dumb as to have been played off each against other then they deserve what they get. Your reasoning over Turkey and Greece has nothing to do with Iran-Contra where President Reagan stood up and admitted he was misled. When was the last time you heard a Greek politician admit to a mistake. It's always KAF.
As to the oil argument (about US and the flow oil) nothing in the world operates without oil. Where does Greece get its oil from? From olive trees? I have seen how Greeks generated electric power without oil. They turned the once beautiful landscape around the Arcadian city of Megalopoli into a moonscape from the coal mining operations. They destroyed the environment which future generations of Greeks will pay for dearly. Simplistic arguments about the US wanting to buy oil from different countries just do not wash.
The US has never invaded countries to confiscate their land or gain their minerals without paying for them. Kosta, can you point out one instance whereby the US fought for land and minerals. The same cannot be said for the Greeks - a good example was the Asia Minor debacle to which you admitted.
I know we agree on this Kosta, but as to the Greek governments not releasing themselves from the eagle's claw this will never happen because:
a. No Greek government is capable of governing without some country, be it the US, Britain, France, or the EU looking over its shoulder. Greeks are politically immature and until the Church of Greece releases its grip on power Greece will always be looked upon as a third world country by the West.
b. The Church of Greece will not permit the loosening of the ties with the US. Reason? Money.
c. And if they were loosened who would be their protector? Russia? Iran? China? Who would come to their aid every time they got into a tiff with Turkey? It just might be good for the US to loosen its ties with Greece because the gain is only one sided. No US investment in Greece. No more American tourists come because of the anti-Americanism, so why even
waste our time here?
Also, Kosta, it may be of interest to know that Greece's military weapons come not only from the US but from Germany, China, Czech Republic, Russia, and France. This is costing the Greek taxpayer plenty because parts and maintenance from multiple sources like this cost more than from a single source.
As for Prime Minister Venizelos and the Asia Minor debacle, Venizelos was voted out of office because of his opposition to the Greek trek into the Turkish interior. This is another example of Greek immaturity. By the way, after the Greeks were chased out of Turkey the Greek government put six of their own military generals and politicians up against the wall and
executed them accusing them of being the cause for the loss in Asia Minor. More nonsense. The entire electorate was equally responsible.
As for the US collaborating/cooperating with other countries to promote their policies for the welfare of the American people, my question is why not? The Greeks will sell their own mother if it's for their personal gain and to hell with their country. You should come and see the villas built by the dirty money gained by the politicians and middlemen who gained from the weapons sales.
Regarding the name of Macedonia. The Greeks are unsure of themselves on the point. For years they were sending their children to the "University of Macedonia" in Skopje but when the area became an independent country the name issue all of a sudden became a cause celebre. I understand very well the significance of the name issue. The Greek presumes that acknowledging the name will encourage the Skopje government to have designs on Greek real estate in the area now known as the Greek part of Macedonia. If the Greeks believe that the issue is so significant to Greece's Existence and it is a casus belli (cause for war) then they should go ahead and invade. However, they should be made aware that if the Turks come in on the side of the Macedonians the US will not be there to pull their coals out of the fire.
So, I feel I've said what I have to say, and again, if you disagree and point out my flaws, I won't keep counter arguing. I'll just move on to a new topic so we can save time and not get too confused on any one issue.
Oh, and Kosta. Thanks for saying that you can at least debate with me. The reason you may find most Americans unwilling to debate you is because we're taught that you don't argue (debate) Religion or politics, as it's just not nice. I have a few friends here (Americans) who tell me "Why do you bother arguing with people here, you aren't going to change their mind and will only escalate your blood pressure". Some Americans just smile and agree with you all the while considering the source. I'm not saying I agree but at least you know where they are coming from. I'm more like a Greek in that I'll tell you how I feel if you ask about politics.
OK boys, I think it might be time to try, at least, to get back to the original issues here. It seems we've spiralled into a debate about america and anti-american sentiment and american history. While it is interesting, it doesn't really belong here. Can we get back to the issues of immigration and xenophobia, or are people not interested in that any more?
Thanks scruffy american. Good luck with your blog. If you need anymore help I will gladly answer anything I can. Just post questions on your blog. I have added you to my site feed reader so I will see when you have new content.
Ok, now the history boys are off to Scruffy American's site, please post anything else on the subject of greece versus america over there. (all comments on that issue from now all will be deleted. You have been warned.
Now can we please get back to the subject....the last comment on the topic was from BallAndDust, I hope you don't mind but I am reposting it here.
"Now this thread all began with:
According to the new European Social Survey, Greece is the least welcoming country in Europe as far as foreigners are concerned.
In essence, philoxenia has morphed into gamoxenia.
Some of the knowledge I seek is to understand how Greece came to the situation which exists today. Part of this is how Greek society treats non-Greeks living inside its borders. I think I understand that the motivation is fear of a Slavic or Bulgarian Anschluss. I'd like to think that the years in which this is a possibility are over. There are a large number of Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Turks, and others living in Greece. They have been persecuted, which I hope will stop. I am so very disgusted that Greek adults were spitting on Albanian children that had the honor of carrying the Greek flag on Oxi Day. Does the savagery that burned so painfully during the civil war is still simmer in the hearts of Greeks today? My guess the reason why Greece has not had any significant problems in the past with Armenian immigrants is due to the similarity in culture and shared hatred of the Turks."
Further insights or comments on this subject are very welcome.
Well the ultimate problem is the twisitng of what has happened in Greece.
According to the new European Social Survey, Greece is the least welcoming country in Europe as far as foreigners are concerned.
This is not what the study shows. What studies on migration showis that Greece is the most welcoming country in Europe, and that there are tensions as a result.
Greece has more immigrants than other southern EU countries, on average TWICE the proportio of the average of Spain, Italy and Portugal. Are they more welcoming? NO. so the thesis is is per se absurd.
That this post invited a bunch of invective against Greece (almost all of it factualy wrong) is of some interest. It is the the ugly American thing. It has been going on with Americans visiting Europe for decades.
Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion on what the survey means. The numbers may not be accurate as is true of most statistical studies I've seen. As I said before, twice... "This is taken directly from a survey called the European Social Survey. I do not claim that it is completely accurate. What suprised me was the difference between the anti-foreigner feeling in Greece compared with the rest of Europe. I also wrote at the end of the post, my opinion...
"Greece is relatively new to multiculturalism and has not had decades of discussion and education on the issues"
Greece is changing, very rapidly, and with that rapid change brings fear and insecurity. I do not think the people here are anti-greek or greece. We are trying to discuss the issues here. It is hard. We disagree. But just saying "you are wrong and I am right" does not further the discussion. I had a poster from Portugal a while back who would disagree with you that Greece is more friendly than his country. I know little about the other South European countries so I will not attempt to make comparisons. I realise surveys and statistics are controversial. What I am trying to do here is stimulate dialogue. It is lively, interesting and sometimes downright irritating when people write things I disagree with. But the debate must be had.
In my opinion, the first step in making any positive progress is to acknowledge that there is a problem.
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